Updated Nov. 5, 2023
Navigating the choppy waters of online criticism isn’t always a day at the beach, especially when it comes to personal stories about dating and relationships. A recent conversation highlighted the harsh scrutiny some women face when sharing their experiences. Central to this is the concept of “hitting the wall,” a term used to describe the point at which a woman is perceived to lose her attractiveness, often linked to aging or lifestyle factors. This idea is particularly prevalent in certain corners of the internet, including the “manosphere” and associated groups.
The notion of “The Wall” is often wielded as sort of a gloat, a way for some men to find solace or even a sense of comeuppance in response to their own romantic rejections or frustrations. It’s a narrative that suggests a woman’s value in the dating market diminishes over time, while a man’s increases. At least, this is what they try to have us believe.
A writer once known in the manosphere as Kyle Trouble candidly addressed this mindset in a 2014 article for the now defunct Return Of Kings, titled “Why Do We Root For Women To Hit The Wall?” He described the use of “The Wall” as a defense mechanism, a way for men to shield their egos from the sting of rejection by imagining a future where the tables are turned. It’s a temporary salve for bruised pride, but as Trouble admits, it’s ultimately an ineffective strategy for dealing with the deeper issues of self esteem and the need for validation.
To this part of the Internet though, The Wall is a badge of pride. When we talk about the women who reject us, string us along, and hurt us to the point where we are forced to reflect upon ourselves, there seems to be a common phrase along the following lines dropped it response:
“Well, wait until SHE hits the wall. She has it coming, the bitch.”
This phrase is nothing but a bitter mask to hide behind ourselves. A way to brace for the rejection, embarrassment, and difficulties of having beautiful women in your life, whether it be a harem or a single long-term relationship. Truthfully, it’s nothing but a self-defense mechanism, or hell, a wall, to protect ourselves and our masculinity.
He is describing a defense mechanism used to deflate the sting of rejection, with the “She has it coming” line hinting a tinge of a revenge fantasy. It’s a narrative where the rejecter gets their comeuppance, a sort of cosmic payback for the perceived slight.
A lot of a man’s self-esteem is tied to the reactions he gets from women. If those reactions fall short of expectations, it can bruise his ego and sense of worth, prompting a defensive stance. It’s a way to deflect the pain, to tell himself he didn’t want it anyway, or that time will prove him the winner.
Kyle admits he’s been that guy, the one who mocks the women he’s dated to soothe his bruised ego. But he’s quick to call out this behavior for what it is—a band-aid on a bullet wound. It’s a temporary fix that doesn’t address the real issue, which is a fragile sense of self that can’t handle the idea of not being chosen.
He goes on to say,
I understand, because I’ve been there, done that. I’ve bashed girls I have dated, endlessly, and cackled manically as they gained weight and lost the sexiness that drew them to me in the first place. I have no doubt this will become even more readily apparent as I begin to reach my prime during my 30’s as a male. However, the endless bashing and laughing accomplished nothing for me other than a short-term band-aid, in which I could feel a little better about myself.
I realized it was nothing but a way to protect my fragile ego, because my own inner self and confidence couldn’t handle a woman treating me the way they sometimes did. In a bitter state, such as after being screwed over by a girl, it’s easy to fill with rage and hope that you can channel that energy towards sending a woman head-on into The Wall.
You can’t.
That rage accomplishes nothing.
This admission sheds considerable light on the behaviors some men exhibit after being jilted by women. It’s a candid glimpse into the coping mechanisms that come into play when faced with romantic rejection.
Societal dynamics often suggest that women, generally speaking, have the greater abundance of choices in the dating pool. This isn’t to say women don’t face rejection or that every woman has endless options. However, it’s acknowledged that women, including those who are considered to be of a certain age, can and often do attract significant attention in the dating scene. It’s not uncommon to see a woman, regarded as mature and of value, being pursued ardently, with potential suitors sometimes ready to commit quickly.
On the flip side, many men perceive their dating options as more limited. When a man faces rejection, it can feel like a significant blow to his options and his self worth. As a result, some men might adopt a mindset that reassures them of their own long term value, suggesting that as time passes, they will be the more desirable party, as opposed to the woman who rejected them. It’s a narrative that flips the script, positioning the man as the ‘prize’ to be won in the end. However, it ignores the basic facts that as a man ages, he loses biological value as his testosterone and sperm quality begin to decline at around age 30.
Recognizing this can be powerful. It can help us discern when the issue at hand is less about us and more about the internal struggles of men. It’s about seeing the bigger picture and understanding that sometimes the reactions we receive are reflections of someone else’s battles, not our own worth.
Update Nov 3, 2023: Before you unleash your thoughts in the comments, a heads up: I’m all for free speech, but let’s keep it classy. Respectful and constructive input makes for a better debate and let’s face it, we’re all here to learn and grow. I draw the line at misogyny and disrespect— so don’t go there. This topic’s hot and clearly resonates, so expect more of my two cents in future posts. Speak your mind, but remember to keep the conversation elevated.
— Ash Pariseau
I’ve heard this a few times more as a scare tactic.
“You better settle down now. You’ll soon be hitting the wall and no one will want you!”
This has been going on since 2012.
I’ve seen that too.
“..This has been going on since 2012…”
Lol – women hitting the wall has been going on since humans have existed and it’s completely true. Deny reality if you want, there’s a reason many women start getting desperate as they approach 30. There’s a reason why my high school class’s Homecoming etc. princess uses a 25 year old photo of herself for her profile pic on Facebook. No it’s not because of “the patriarchy”.
No one is denying that women age. The point is how the aging process is used against women in order to protect the fragile male ego.
Which ‘fragile male ego’? Young girls wanting to have sex with bad boys and models but when they get old suddenly guys who were invisable for them first now have to settle for them? Nope.
I’d just like to give my sincere two cents here. If I settle with an average man, and support him through his upward journey, once he reaches there, he’ll just leave me for someone younger or prettier. I’ll be left alone and betrayed. In that way, I’m just protecting myself from potential hurt.
There are many women who do want the trad life and care about men. But when men say things like “you have no value once you’re older” or “all women are bad, not worth it”, etc….you just drive these women away too. This is all the more the reason why more of them will embrace feminism.
‘f I settle with an average man, and support him through his upward journey, once he reaches there, he’ll just leave me for someone younger or prettier.’ That’s just not true, women initiate over 70% of divorces, it’s women who always want someone better, not men.
“you have no value once you’re older” The thing is, many average men get ignored by average women because they all think they’re princesses and deserve a top 10% guy. But when that fails they use us as plan B or C. Men become bitter when they experience that.
Please expand on “how the aging process is used against women” pertaining to this article. No one is “using” or otherwise wielding the aging process here. It’s simply something that happens. And it so happens that it typically tends to have greater negative impacts on females than men. No one is harnessing any special powers here. It just is what it is.
You don’t like how some guys have schadenfreude about it. Rather than ignoring them and moving on, you want to try to deny reality and pose some strange theory along the lines of “it’s all a farce designed to protect the male ego.” At some point, the truth outruns the lies. And the truth is it can be both that a woman hits the wall and this is an ego boost for at least some men. But regardless of what happens or doesn’t happen to anyone’s ego, what happens at the point of the wall is very real, and is very visible to all.
Maybe, instead of ego, it’s just some kind of satisfaction. The feeling that justice ain’t just a philosophical concept. Cheers.
Yes, that’s the revenge fantasy.
LMFBAO NO WOMAN CAN ESCAPE THE WALLLLLL
Facts. You see these strags are breaking their necks trying to do damage control. Really rushing to create weak ass these online articles that only pander and speak directly against many women’s observable reality. The denial is both pathetic & hilarious.You go girls, stunning & brave as always. lol
You’re so mad lol
Nor any man. If you were not appealing to the young women of your own generation you won’t be appealing to the new young women. Unless you’re rich. If you’re a beautiful young woman you’re going to want a man also young and beautiful. Not a dried up old perve.
That’s true.
I’m curious about what men think of their partner when she gets to 35 onwards .
If men believe women hit a wall at 35 , 40 then do they feel less desire for their women? I understand the concept if women getting to 35 plus and they bow want to settle down and this is the so call wall but I’m seeing so many comments from men on here saying women lose thier looks after a certain age .
I’ve been with my man for a very long time and we have a traditional relationship I’d hate to think he thinks I’ve hit a wall .
We get on still and still have a good sex life so I guess he still finds me attractive but this wall thing is pretty depressing if this is how all men think 😵
Honestly, this is a very good question. “Hitting the wall” does not mean the person now has less value as an individual. This only affects the person’s value in the dating market. Both men and women in long, lasting, and meaningful relationships are going to age. Over the span of that relationship, their value to each other will INCREASE.
That would make sense. Still, a woman deserves to have a man who truly believes that any man would be lucky to have her if say, heaven forbid, something happened to him and she eventually had to move on. I mean, let’s say you’re 40 and he passes away. Is he going to think “you’re a catch, so you’ll do fine at moving on” OR “welp, I got your best years and now you’re over 40, so you’ll have to settle for what you can get since you’re post wall.” To have a man who thinks that about anyone at all is just, gross.
Do they ‘deserve’ each other? While building a life and a legacy with a significant partner, such as a wife… As a man I would be hoping she’s going to be the best steward for the legacy of our children. I wouldn’t be spending a lot of time wondering how she’s going to fare back on the dating market. However, I do understand a woman’s need or desire to be reminded of that. That doesn’t come across as of high importance, to me. Should a man and his wife discuss the ladies he would pursue, in the event of her untimely death?
No I don’t think untimely death should be a big concern. I only used that example to help illustrate my point that a husband should always view his wife as high value, the most attractive, as well as his best option, regardless if she’s 25 or 55. The fact that so many men seem to view women over 30 as less attractive than women 25 or younger makes me wonder how their view changes of their own wife, once married. No woman wants to know that her husband sees her as less than in any way just because she’s aged. If anything, his attraction and love for her should grow with age. If it doesn’t, I’d say he’s either with the wrong woman or there’s something faulty with the way he views women in general.
My thoughts exactly. I couldn’t imagine actually being in a relationship with a man who views women in this way. Would be find her less attractive after 35? Would he search for someone younger? The risk of having to wonder that would be a dealbreaker in itself.
@Kj: “‘Hitting the wall’ does not mean the person now has less value as an individual. This only affects the person’s value in the dating market. Both men and women in long, lasting, and meaningful relationships are going to age. Over the span of that relationship, their value to each other will INCREASE.”—Amen to that!
There’s a widespread misconception about “the wall” as being something all women will inevitably encounter on their life path at one point or another, when in reality “the wall” only stands along the way of one specific life path among many possible paths a woman could have walked. The cumulative effects of a woman’s life decisions over the preceding decade will determine whether she ends up on that specific path in her thirties or not.
Also, where does the idea that any and all women “deserve” any minimum standard of man come from? When has that ever been true of anything? You deserve the partner you’re able to attract and retain based on your perceived qualities in that partner’s eyes. If what you bring is not on par with what you demand, you’re just going to get skipped for someone who has more to offer.
In fact, that’s exactly the dynamic at play behind the so-called “wall”—it’s that time in a woman’s life when what she has to offer is no longer sufficient to attract a man up to her own standards. In other words, it’s when the type of men you’re going after have options, and dating you is none of them.
Doesn’t this fee like it’s dressing up old scare tactics in new clothes? Framing the wall as this inevitable doom for women who don’t play their cards right, that’s a more covert way to serving up the fear based narrative in a veneer of concern. It’s still giving “Watch out, or you’ll end up alone and unattractive!” Life is complex. People are complex. We shouldn’t be living our lives under a looming shadow of an arbitrary deadline.
No, it’s “you better settle down now, or the only men who will want you are lower value men you’re not attracted to”.
Post wall women can get men. They just can’t get the men they really want, the ones they’re really attracted to. They have to settle, in most cases, very deeply, which causes them great frustration and unhappiness. I’ve seen this too many times to mention. Hundreds of times.
I believe that’s part of the revenge fantasy.
Maybe it’s true for basic girls who don’t know how to stay hot past 25. They’ve probably had a kid or two which ruins your figure making it a thousand times harder to stay fit and good looking.
My advice? eat right, work out, don’t smoke or do drugs, and do NOT have kids.
Do that and you’re good to go.
No, it’s not part of any revenge fantasy. It’s just reality.
What are your thoughts on men who confess revengeful thoughts when it comes to women hitting the wall?
Not having kids will hurt the human population, and having one kid abd raising the child right will maintain quality and minimal reproduction. Also, a woman can still be hot after having children quite easily.
This is something Americans need to get in their thick skull: its not because you have an enormous country and you can waste and pollute away that there isn’t a problem of overpopulation. We should encoure people not to get more than 1 child, even then there will be enough egocentric people who don’t care about the planet and will still get 3 or more kids. It’s quite ironic how much people care about the planet containing less people compared to the much needed attention of overpopulation.
Agree with the revenge fantasy comment. I’ll admit I’ve taken some satisfaction in attractive women who were not interested in me 30 years ago turn into women I am not interested in today. It’s less to do with age and more about overall fitness. Remember that old joke about a guy putting his sneakers not to outrun the bear chasing him and his buddy, but just to outrun his buddy? It’s that simple ladies, keep fit, keep active, make an effort to look nice. You’ll have our attention and this so called wall will never hit you.
CORRECT
It’s because dating is unfair for men. Average women, and even below average or unattractive women, can have unlimited choices when it comes to access to sex or online dating matches; hundreds even thousands of matches, the paradox of choice, whereas average men, and even above average attractive men, get virtually zero matches, which in other words means women are overvalued and men undervalued. The wall means that females begin losing their sexual power over men and face steep competition from younger, prettier women and so it sorts of evens as they move into their 30s and 40s, and makes it fairer competition for men. Look at the SMV graph.
It baffles me that women deny this. It’s as if I wouldn’t believe women would find me less attractive if I would weigh 150kg.
Regardless of age, no woman should be considering men who put youth and beauty above character and relationship skills. Smart women will look for men who appreciate what she has to offer, and leave the ones looking to play in the Junior Varsity sandbox alone.
80% of women have NOTHING to offer except looks.No personality or hobbies at all, self-absorbed with looks. Why do you think older men still want young women? It’s biology, just as women want succesfull and good earning tall men, men want beautiful women. Strangely it’s only the latter that is being criticized in our society.
Those men and women who are in healthy, long lasting relationships, or are at least positioned for healthy long lasting relationships tend to adopt a much different mentality and take a much different approach than this. Men chasing and prioritizing youth and beauty and women chasing and prioritizing successful men over the more important, yet intangible criteria, are likely to end up with turbulent, short term situations.
FACTS
Unless you’re a rich dude no young woman wants you any more than you want an older woman. Grey pubes and a sagging ball sack are no more attractive than saggy old tits. ALL old people are unattractive, regardless of gender. Old man.
“80% of women have NOTHING to offer except looks”
Yeah and you’re the kind of guy who writes endless simplistic rants about things he doesn’t understand and spends his days annoying people online. What an amazing and wonderful personality you have to offer huh, I’m sure women just can’t wait to get with idiot losers like this. Get off the internet and go see a therapist please.
“no woman should be considering men who put youth and beauty above character and relationship skills”
Ash, this is stupid. You will not know what a man thinks at all. Most men never reveal to the woman what we think about HER specifically. Its why women constantly beg to know what is on the mind of the man they are interested. We wont tell you your attitude is bad, we would tell you the meal you made was gross, we wont tell you we think your vaginas are ugly, we wont tell you youre fat. We will just ghost. So many women who hit “the wall” get ghosted & its not for other women. Some of you women are just not likable people. When tell yall the truth, you argue. So it best to have sex with you than move on.
So what you’re saying is you’re a coward.
Lol. Do you really believe this propaganda?
Listen, since you hate women so much and clearly have zero respect for them, I think you’re only solution is to hang up the towel. I mean, you make it pretty clear that you won’t be missing much. And let’s be real, your true agenda is to exert power and control over women in an attempt to make yourself feel like you are a man of importance and strength. You are neither. You’re ideology is evil and harmful for society. Your manipulation and coercion tactics to shame, degrade and scare women into believing that they “lose value” or are “easily replaceable” in an attempt frighten them into lowering standards so that you could possibly have a chance with a woman for once in your life is predatory.
Your false movement (RP) is over. You guys failed. Now, go work on yourself. You’re character is non-existent.
Ash:”Regardless of age, no woman should be considering men who put youth and beauty above character and relationship skills.”
Men should also be looking for high-quality women. But given equal quality, most will prefer more beautiful, maybe also younger.
In light of that, I think “the wall” exists (but it’s not so much a wall as a constantly growing obstacle to the relationship eventually desired). I wonder why women do not seem to recognize this and choose to make the effort to find a high-quality man when their own attractiveness is at its highest. My theory is that they are blinded by their enjoyment of the moment (with men of “beauty”, perhaps even “high-value” men) instead of seeing the long-term consequences of their behavior. It’s said hindsight is 20/20. More importantly, it’s in the past and cannot be repeated. It’s unfortunate so many people have to learn from their mistakes.
So it’s ok for women to select for what they are biologically wired to select for, but no woman would want a man who selects for what he is biologically wired to select for? I don’t understand this comment you’ve made. You are read up on what the rudimentary science tells us about the differences in mate selection between male and females a? Your comment seems to condemn as unacceptable mens tendency to select for certain traits. Such an outlook from either sex would condemn our population to collapse.
She will give it a spin but yeah, that’s what women say. They call their preferences (tall, status, wealth) ‘biology’ but when men want young and fit women those are ‘outdated patriarchically shallow choices’.
Tall, status, wealth are some women’s external preferences and still not enough to qualify a man for a long term partnership.
I made a recent post about the difference between a high value man and a quality man. I encourage both men and women to focus on selecting a part based on internal characteristics.
‘Tall, status, wealth are some women’s external preferences and still not enough to qualify a man for a long term partnership.’ That’s the whole pointg, women suck at picking partners.They only go for guys with personalities that matter once they hit the wall.
Maturity does tend to come with age and experience. Other than that, what do you think might motivate women to better qualify men for relationships?
‘Maturity does tend to come with age and experience. Other than that, what do you think might motivate women to better qualify men for relationships?’ Kind of a lucky coinsidence that women do whatever they please until they ‘matured’ (I thought girls matured faster than boys, huh?) but when men have established themselves and they can do whatever they want women complain men don’t want to commit. So you get to ‘play’ and ‘keep your options open’ when you are young but when men finally have that power they shouldn’t use it? How ’bout no?
Okay:
1) social media like Instagram and Tiktok should be illegal. Women get inflated ego’s because of all the validation they get from men.
2) women should stop following Instagram models so they won’t get body dysmorphia. They are so concerned with their looks that they ‘forget’ to develop a personality. I’d date 80% of women aged 18-30 in my city lookswise, if I’d talk to them for 5′ it would boil down to 5%
3) stop watching reality tv like the Kardashians, most men don’t earn 20k a month. Most men don’t look like models. Women are deluded and think most men are ugly because they have no clue what an average man looks like.
4) men must gain back self-respect, stop simping for women and hold them accountable for thei actions. Only fans should be illegal since it’s a prostitution website.
5)young people should stop being addicted to technology and TALK to each other to develop social skills. Women should be taught that they should face risks as well, not let men take risks and enjoy the benefits, it’s okay to approach men.
6) women (and men too) should learn that having a high body count isn’t something good and people will find it important, no matter how much you’ll try to shame them for it.
These things will never happen and men and women will grow away from each other even more.
I understand that you have some concerns about modern dating and relationships, and it’s important to have open discussions about these topics. However, I believe some of the statements you’ve made are problematic and oversimplify complex issues.
Firstly, while it’s true that maturity often comes with age and experience, it’s also important to recognize that everyone’s journey is different. Many people have different goals and priorities in life.
Secondly, social media platforms like Instagram and TikTok are not inherently evil, and women are not solely responsible for the validation they receive on these platforms. Everyone, regardless of gender, can fall prey to the lure of social media and its effects on self-esteem.
Thirdly, body dysmorphia and the objectification of women are serious issues that should be addressed, but suggesting that women should simply stop following Instagram models is not a solution. It’s important to address the root causes of these issues, such as societal pressures and unrealistic beauty standards.
Fourthly, it’s not productive to suggest that websites like OnlyFans should be illegal without a deeper understanding of the complex issues surrounding sex work and consent.
Fifthly, developing social skills and taking risks in relationships is important for both men and women, and it’s important to encourage everyone to pursue their desires in a respectful and consensual way.
Lastly, the idea that having a high body count is inherently negative is a societal construct that should be questioned. People should be free to explore their sexuality and make their own choices without fear of judgment or shame.
While it’s important to have discussions about modern dating and relationships, it’s important to approach these topics with nuance and respect for all individuals involved.
The more these Manosphere types talk, the stupider they sound. They’re really just the reactionary side of Male Feminism. Just like Feminists want laws and social policy to level the playing field between high and low quality women, these Incels want to do the same for men. Though they’ll never admit it, most of them have bought into the Feminist negative stereotypes of men and teach other men to live down to them. (In most of their cases, that’s making a virtue of necessity: but it won’t work for normal men)lol
“”Regardless of age, no woman should be considering men who put youth and beauty above character and relationship skills.””
Men are attracted to youth and beauty. It’s part of our DNA ingrained over hundreds of thousands of year. Without the requisite attraction factors, there will be no relationship. After that it is important to have character. The relationship won’t last without it. You need all of those factors to have a successful relationship
While it’s true that physical attraction is often an initial factor in a romantic relationship, it’s complex and influenced by many factors, including cultural and societal norms.
While youth and beauty may be valued in some cultures, it is not universal. In many societies, qualities such as wisdom, intelligence, and kindness are equally if not more important than physical appearance. In fact, studies have shown that people prioritize personality traits over physical attractiveness in the long term.
All in all, communication, shared values and goals, and mutual respect as well as sexual chemistry are all essential components of a successful partnership.
You sir are 1000% wrong about your assumptions.
I will agree that some younger women are attractive, but there are attractive women in any age group.
Do you realize that MILF porn is the most searched out and has been for years in over 30 countries?
What does that suggest to you? Obviously,men of ALL ages turned on by 35-45 year old women.
Do a little research and you will find out the real truth… The study that you manosphere groupies cite pertaining to age men found to be the most physically attracted to was 23. However, on that same study, the majority of men agreed they were more interested in the actual dating of women in equal age group as them up to 5 yrs younger.
The majority of men don’t want to be with young girls. It makes me question why 35-45-55 year old men of your R.P.mindset keep pushing this pedo narrative.
This doesn’t bother you?
If you have ever experienced a long term, true love, legit relationship you would know that you’re partner becomes the most beautiful/handsome person in your eyes.
And guess what? My partner is 9 years younger than me. I’m an attractive 45 yr old woman. He is an attractive (imo, the most gorgeous man I have ever seen) 36 year old man. He is a good provider, we aren’t rich but we aren’t poor either. That’s inconsequential anyways. We value things that really matter. You know like trust, consideration, honor, similar values and morals, a shared concept of what we want our relationship to be.
He leads our household and I have no issue with this arrangement and you know why?
Because he makes me feel safe, loved, valued, honored, beautiful and his priority. He doesn’t instill fear or try to make me insecure in order to abuse the right as the head of the family.
Follow God’s Law. HIS way works.
Regarding the MILF porn comment, while that may be true, you may have information without context. Most men are able to separate love and sex so assuming that a certain type of porn focused on an age group is equal to a commitment/love is untrue. Yes, I know you have anecdotal evidence of your own relationship with a younger man, but statically your case is outlier. Men are interested in sexual novelty and the MILF fantasy includes it. Think of it as part of our “50 Shades of Grey” but don’t’ think this translates to putting a ring on the finger of someone 20 years older than us. Lastly, I don’t know what you mean by “Gods Way”. With women having their first periods at 12, risking death at childbirth and misery one week with a month due to menstruation, I’d argue that God’s project plan needed a couple of iterations before moving into the execute stage.
The great majority of women, including many of those “smart” ones, do and will continue doing so because it’s what men are attracted to: Female youth and beauty. Why do you think make-up, heels, social media filters and cosmetic surgery to look younger and enhance their looks are a billion dollar industry? Because women CARE about what the men they are interested want. And who are you to assert what women should or should not consider? Not all want relationships, some want money, sex or a lifestyle.
Last but not least, you yourself are shaming men for wanting to date younger women. When women want tall men, it’s a preference, it’s a standard, etc.., but when men want to date younger women, then they are age-shamed exactly like you are doing with the junior sandbox statement. Or what is it that you are implying then? Are cougars shamed the same way? Enough with the #double-standards.
It’s true that the beauty industry is a multi billion dollar industry, however it’s not solely driven by women’s desire to appeal to men. Many women use makeup and other beauty products for their own personal enjoyment, self expression, or as a form of self care. Additionally, social media filters and cosmetic surgery are not solely used by women to enhance their appearance for men either. They are often used by individuals to boost their own self confidence or self esteem.
At the end of the day, women can consider whatever they want, and so can men. Women are allowed to have whatever preferences they want, and so can men. What I question are the intentions behind the preferences, and bring those intentions to light.
I never said it’s solely the reason, read again. You are missing the big picture
Your whole argument is about the concept of women “hitting the wall”. So they do whatever they can to stay young and attractive mainly because they want attention (either from men or other women). Women are the ones mostly concerned with a youth preference for men. It’s very simple: It’s biology, it’s evolutionary anthropology, that’s how most men choose women and later on, provided other traits, develop long-term relationships.
So other than bringing to light the intentions behind male preferences for youth and beauty to understand evolution and biology, it’s more of a masquerade used to convey resentfulness, anger and envy for the loss of the unlimited choices they had a few years ago in the dating market. It’s also hypocritical because many of these age-shaming women were themselves (and actually are) dating older men, because men don’t peak in their 20s, they peak when they are older.
My whole argument was on why some men root for women to hit the wall. For those men, they’re the ones with resentfulness, anger, and envy for the loss of unlimited choices they missed out on when they were younger, as the man I referred to in the post confessed to. Also, men don’t peak when they’re older. Men are at their best when they’re in their 20s and I’ll have an article on that one soon. I pitched the idea yesterday to a platform, and I’m waiting to see if they accept it. If not, it will be posted here.
It’s not difficult to understand, it’s the satisfaction of seeing karma hitting many delusional, entitled, narcissistic, selfish and disagreeable modern women, for THOSE women (NOT quality women) many men root for them hitting the wall because it humbles them down giving them a dose of reality and a sense of justice being served.
And no, men don’t peak in their 20’s, you’re absolutely wrong. As a general rule, women value men with experience, confidence, character and resources, which take years to develop and DO peak later in life. Most men in their 20’s lack these qualities, let alone being able to peak so young.
“it’s the satisfaction of seeing karma hitting many delusional, entitled, narcissistic, selfish and disagreeable modern women, for THOSE women (NOT quality women)”
This still isn’t justifiable. A quality man would accept rejection, like an adult, and move on with his life. You are point blank admitting this isn’t your attitude. So why should a quality woman look your way when you can’t handle rejection?
Physically, men are at their best between 20 and 30. Otherwise, smart women value a man for his ability to sustain in being a loyal, cooperative life partner.
‘many men root for them hitting the wall because it humbles them down giving them a dose of reality and a sense of justice being served.’
It really ain’t that difficult to understand but Ash and nearly every woman doesn’t seem to get this point. Ask them if they would enjoy a male cheater being cheated on himself and they’d understand.
Except, it’s not humbling to women like they think it is. The act of rooting for women to hit the wall only makes you look like a jackass with unresolved envy and rage issues.
Revenge is only a human trait, to deny that is bad according to science. It’s not up to you to decide how people should feel and act. Looking forward to articles about young women making stupid life choices and not wanting the consequences of those actions when they get older. Oddly I never read stuff about that.
https://neurosciencenews.com/revenge-emotion-brain-19978/#:~:text=When%20trust%20was%20violated%20in,good%2C%20rather%20than%20feeling%20bad.
You’re right – if someone wants to have a revengeful spirit, they have every right to feel that way. But what we DO get to decide is whether or not we’re going to be around someone with that energy. Smart women aren’t going to tolerate the nastiness of someone who’s always rooting for others to fail out of revenge.
That is a bit unrealistic. Unless the relationship is a very “mature” one meaning over the age of 65, then it would just be friends. “Romance” implies a bit of infatuation and in order to stimulate that part for men and women alike there are usually physical traits about each human that brings them together for a more intimate and passionate relationship other than a legally binding business contract sealed with a fake kiss.
What do they have to offer?
Well, that depends. Women can offer many different things, for the right man.
Its hilarious that they always say ‘I have more than my looks, completely ignoring it’s what attracts the most initially, and ignoring they do the same. (men must be richer, more status, taller etc). If it weren’t for sex and kids, most men would rather stay single. Everything a woman has to offer, a man can do too.
Physical attraction can certainly play a role in initial attraction, though a woman’s worth extends far beyond her looks. Different people are attracted to different qualities in others. While some might prioritize physical attractiveness or societal status, other might also place significant value on emotional compatibility, shared interests, communication, and other non-superficial aspects. Ultimately, the key to meaningful relationships lies in understanding and appreciating the depth and uniqueness of each person, beyond superficial traits.
Some men (high value?) are smart enough to look for women who have good character and will be good partners while also being young and beautiful. Why not look for the best package?
It’s common to want a partner who’s got it all, but it’s important to have realistic expectations. Younger women are often still on their journey to full emotional and mental maturity. You’re not likely to find a 20 year old with the life experience and wisdom that often comes with a few more decades on the planet. Long lasting relationships tend to be built on more than just initial attraction. They’re about growth, understanding, and a mutual evolution of character over time.
There’s a problem with should versus reality. How I wish women would prioritize men who really value them. But in my experience this quality is drowned out by the so many other standards which take precedence. “Don’t settle” — as if choosing someone other than Superman is settling. As an average to above-average looking and earning male, and a decent and kind person, I felt totally ignored by women. Imagine going in to your 30s hardly having had any options at all. Now imagine what it must feel like to a guy for interest to suddenly appear in later years—women having finally “figured out what really matters”. Well I’m sorry to say but by this time it’s too late—“where were you the last 15 years of my life???”This is what led to me finding my Wife abroad—I met the most wonderful person who genuinely finds me to be a catch—not a last resort option. Maybe it feels okay to “not need no man”, being casual with short term flings and holding out for Superman while younger—but I imagine it will be very different when celebrating the holidays alone at age 65+, with no friends or family in sight.
This is what is meant by “the wall”. The men who didn’t value you for the real you and wouldn’t commit—are gone. The men whose qualities are maybe now more valued at an older age—are gone. The ideal man you’ve been holding out for—never existed. And now you are just alone. Welcome to what 90%+ of men have felt their whole young adult lives. Except they have more options as they age, and can still have a family at a later age.
I’m sorry to be harsh but this is the reality I’ve learned.
Hi Alex. You’ve clearly had a rough go in the dating world. No one’s discounting the sting of feeling invisible. But when you talk about the wall and how women suddenly take notice later in life, you’re treading into some pretty broad generalizations.
People change. What women want in their 20s can be miles away from what they value in their 40s. It’s not necessarily them suddenly realizing their worth, but it’s about growing up and understanding what makes a relationship actually work. It’s not settling. It’s maturing and it’s completely normal.
Saying it’s “too late” when someone starts showing interest implies that there’s some sort of expiration date on when a woman can start getting her act together. That’s not how life works. People find love at all stages, and just because it didn’t happen in the timeline you wanted doesn’t mean genuine connections later on are impossible or invalid.
Glad that you found love. But don’t paint everyone with the same brush because of your experiences. The women who reject men in their 20s can and will find love… when they’re ready to be in a serious relationship.
But who says that all women want sex? You’re projecting your desires on women and generalizing on top of that. I have men approach me, not for the desire of getting know me, but to just get in my pants. It’s disrespectful and disheartening to think that I’m only seen as a potential body and nothing more. It doesn’t feel good. It might be to you cause it seems like all you want is sex. Just because a man wants sex from a woman does not mean she has “options”. Options of what? A bunch of douche bags who only want access to my body?
That’s a solid outlook Cassandra. A lot of men desiring a woman for sex doesn’t equate to options. I’m certain that will be received a lot better coming from a woman, as opposed to a man saying it.
Basically American women have become so terrible and insufferable in modern society that they are undatable, feminism has forced men to MGTOW go their own way or Passport Bros travel to an Asian country to seek a much higher *Value, feminine and traditional wife. American men have been destroyed by divorce with courts favoring the women who take 50% or more of the men’s assets, house, cars, alimony, child support, the children themselves. Men think in terms of ROI, and American women are BAD ROI. Instead American men MGTOW or Passport Bro the F out of America.
Most of these men do nothing to deserve a feminine, traditional, high value wife. It involves a lot more than they think -a hell of a lot more than money and success.
I agree with you 100%, youth, beauty, money,and success are not a viable recipe for a long term relationship. Communication, shared interests, shared values, time, energy, and commitment, honesty, integrity, honor and love are much more important. The only wall I see is a wall of ignorance and intolerance, revenge fantasy is the perfect description for this mindset. To say the dating market is unfair is weak minded and lazy, I wonder if these men realize how competitive certain segments in business really are, the competition can be absolutely cutthroat. Also, salesmen don’t complain the market is unfair, they develop sales, marketing, and advertising campaigns to reach potential clients and focus thier time and energy on those who show interest rather than on the ones not interested in thier products or services. I believe if men are unable to find who they are looking for in thier own country, they should go abroad to find her, but go with the understanding she is not some puppet in the corner just waiting to dance on the strings of her master, they are very real women with hopes, dreams, wants, needs, desires along with customs, traditions, and a different way of life that youth, beauty, money, and success cannot compensate for flawed character. Thank you Ash, it was a great article!
Thank you for your comment Raul. You’ve nailed it! Building a lasting relationship is so much more than just surface level attributes. Communication, shared values, and all those meaningful connections are how happy, long lasting relationships are built.
It’s refreshing to see someone recognize the fallacy in the dating market argument. Relationships are a two way street, and it’s important to approach them with open hearts and minds. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
There is no ‘fallacy’. It’s quite hilarious how you can’t even fathom how young men are treated by young women. Strange that we do feel sympathy when older women are dumped for younger women or when women get cheated on (women cheat and abuse as much btw, look up stats) and we even encourage them to take revenge, but when men have those feelings it’s ToXiC MaScUlInItY.
The point you’re making highlights the need for empathy and understanding for everyone’s emotions, regardless of gender, and I agree with you on that.
The growing awareness of the concept of toxic masculinity refers to cultural norms and expectations that pressure men to conform to certain stereotypes of behavior, often suppressing their emotions and vulnerabilities. Do you know how many men refuse to admit that they are emotional? Of course men too experience pain, heartbreak, and vulnerability. Anger is am emotion too. The intention isn’t to dismiss or belittle men’s emotions, but rather to challenge the societal constructs that limit emotional expression.
‘he intention isn’t to dismiss or belittle men’s emotions, but rather to challenge the societal constructs that limit emotional expression.’
The we should teach women, not men. It’s women who punish men for showing emotions and vulnerability. Ask any men who showed emotions or weakness towards his girlfriend or wife and ask what happened. I imagine older couples do it better. What women think they want and what they really want isn’t the same. It’s like women who claim they want a stay at home dad. Yup, and after a year the sex is completely gone because most women don’t respect men who don’t provide, although I wish they did.
I’m going to agree to disagree on that one. I consistently have men, not women, trying to tell me that men are emotional being, that they’re not supposed to be emotional, and that showing anger isn’t being emotional. Toxic personalities like Andrew Tate and Fresh and Fit are vocal about how showing emotion is weakness for men. It’s my aim to help women be aware of this and act accordingly. To your other point, there’s nothing wrong with being a stay at home husband. Women don’t respect men who don’t provide when they’re also not providing value at home. Breadwinner wives are on the rise. Our dynamic is shifting at home as well, which I’ll speak more on when the time is right, but I can tell you right now, higher earning wives need to understand that if they’re husbands aren’t paying the bills, then they need to give value in other ways, and that is essential to maintain harmony and respect.
What those men said was ‘we aren’t supposed to show emotion’ since women don’t appreciate it, proven over and over again.
‘Toxic personalities like Andrew Tate and Fresh and Fit’ they did more for young men than women ever did. I assume it’s because they expose a lot of women’s true nature and tell young men to know their worth and not to simp for thots. I’m not a fan of calling women bitches and not a fan of doing what you deny your wife to do or their materialism, but they know how women work and I think women are just mad they are being exposed, one of the benefits of internet.
‘To your other point, there’s nothing wrong with being a stay at home husband. Women don’t respect men who don’t provide when they’re also not providing value at home. ‘ Hah! It’s because women -much against their will- HAVE TO ADAPT, sadly they only do it after hitting the wall. Women aged 25-30 are still aiming for men better educated and higher salary, as-once again-data shows. So women can chose between a stay at home dad or staying alone. They often chose the last option and share the high value man, as we can see in the statistics about 30% women vs 60% of young men being single (women themselves claim they don’t want men who are 10 years older, remember, so that can’t be a reason, also not even 15% of these women is lesbian so a lot of women think they are in relationship while they just share men)
Maybe the young girls they’re attracting don’t appreciate when a man shows emotion, but few men seem to understand the difference between those girls and grown women, including men like Andrew Tate. He knows about little girls, because that’s what he likes and what he attracts. He doesn’t know grown women, because grown women see right through his BS. But that’s less about him particularly as more as an example of a type.
High earning men doesn’t mean good partner. Young girls go after high earning men because they want him to either spend money on her or take care of her. Adult women interested in long term partnerships are far more interested in how a man demonstrates his loyalty, cooperation, companionship, and support. That’s entirely different than a relationship or partnership. I’m talking about apples (mature women looking for stable, long partnerships) and you’re carrying on about oranges (young girls looking for a hot, rich guy to be seen with for a few months). Also, if you’re going to throw around statistics, please cite your sources.
No need, I saw the stats, domestic abuse and cheating happens as often with men as women. The fact that it is so difficult to find those stats back, when stats about how abuse and cheating men are says enough.
Ah, I can agree wit that, I’m 33 so I mostly know women 25-30. I think women should step up and act accordingly when they are younger. After all, women are much more adult at a young age than boys, aren’t they? But somehow they act as if they are naive innocent creatures. My guess is that they only start to care about good guys when they can’t attract the badboys to have fun with anymore. Of coure when they are honest about it, most men wouldn’t be interested. But I guess we will never know for sure. The thing is that when men are ignored all the time when they are young, they stop caring about women all together. ‘Yaaay, after she had fun 10 years now my time has come to be a breadwinner and give here children’. Yeah, nope.
Well, women reach emotional maturity at about 33 and for men it’s about 43. Besides, young women know they can in fact have fun when they’re young and still marry a good, loyal man when they’re a little older.
Life’s not fair. Point blank, end of story, period. The Gazelle is not in a position to argue with the lion chewing on its entrails. The argument you used about salesmen coming up with new tactics, is exactly the same point being made here. I seem to recall many companies moving to China to cut labor costs correct? Same concept. Higher value women, who are far more humble, and are far less demanding, have better character, than the women who grow up in this culture. See? It IS about character.
It’s a bit of a stretch to equate humility with superior character. In many cultures, women are celebrated for their strength, resilience, and assertiveness.
Yes absolutely, and definitely something worth working towards. That’s why he said some men go MGTOW who can’t afford it. I would rather be single and die alone in the west, than be in a relationship with a modern western woman. If my goals are met though, and I can afford to do it, I’ll retire early, and move elsewhere to find a proper wife.
What makes you think a ‘proper wife’ elsewhere is going to go for you?
Ash, that’s an interesting comment. I would think that there are a lot of people here in the U.S. that celebrate those qualities, and more, in women. Could you give some examples of those cultures?
Its a fact, that there are a lot of qualities that most men could say they value in women. Just like there are qualities women value in men (oh, I know could be wrong about that). Regardless of how much one gender would like the other gender to find value in the characteristics they wish they did, those wishes probably will not come true. this is part of the reason SOME guys are talking about ‘the wall.’
I believe there’s a growing and vocal appreciation for women who embody strength, resilience, and assertiveness here. Icons like Michelle Obama, Malala Yousafzai, and Simone Biles come to mind. They’re not just celebrated in the U.S. but globally, as symbols of what women can achieve when not boxed into traditional stereotypes.
The Amazons of Greek mythology were inspired by real groups like the Scythian women, fierce warriors of ancient Eurasia. In modern times, look at Nordic countries, African tribes, Rwanda, leading the world in female parliamentary representation.
I can agree with that. With examples going back so far in time, couldn’t we say that women have always been appreciated?
Chris You certainly nailed it.
“You just want someone to control.”
-women who are insufferable.
Chris,
You do realize that China has the highest divorce rate in the world right?
If you want to go get a China bride great, Either way I urge you to fact check what you and other men are being spoonfed by the RedPill group.
China is 7th in divorce rates.
>“You better settle down now. You’ll soon be hitting the wall and no one will want you!”
>This has been going on since 2012.
This has been going on (in cycles) since 40,000 BCE, or whenever patriarchy started. The only difference is that family members used to force women into marriage at much younger ages. Prior to the 1800s, childless women were often accused of witchcraft. Back in the 1800s, grandmothers would tell their granddaughters to get ready for marriage around mid-puberty.
A key difference is that in the 1800s, a woman who didn’t marry and have kids was vulnerable to harassment from a wider community. In 21st century Western countries, it’s illegal to harass a childless woman for being childless.
Are people are being arrested for harassing women for not having kids?
They are now.
Men are being arrested for being mean to women.
The wall is very real. Women are judged primarily on looks and fertility. There are
some good looking older women but the wall always wins in the end. Look at the writer for sex and the city and how her life turned out if you need proof
By your logic “the wall always wins” for everyone. This isn’t something that should be used as a weapon to scare women into settling for shallow, manipulative, low value men while still in their 20s. I highly suspect it is being used that way.
It’s an odd choice of words saying this is a weapon used by men. It’s simply being clear to women that the older you get the less you get.
As far as settling, studies show that at least 70% of women are chasing around 10% of men on dating apps. It’s not a case of settling it’s about being realistic. Seventy percent of women can’t get the top 10% of men.
This is why so many women stay in the game so long until they hit the wall.
Sure the top guys will sleep with a big chunk of women but they don’t value them enough to wife them. And why should they? Men are well aware women have lists they filter men with so know they are being targeted by women based on height, income etc. This is why women complain of being used for sex by men they want longer relationships with, they are having sex with men they think they can get but aren’t actually on the level these men would take seriously.
The fact is many women on dating apps falsely think they are more attractive to men than they actually are as they get lots of messages. You actually see videos of very unattractive heavy women talking about how choosy they are online, when the penny hasn’t dropped that the attention they are getting is just guys looking for sex. Based on men’s notions that less attractive women are easier.
As for men’s egos being fragile? Average men get rejected online by over 70% of women, so frequently it has zero effect as men view dating as a numbers game. Which is another reason women get so many messages.
The wall or rather loss of dating value for men is only an issue for those women who spend so long on the market they exhausted their options which they should have taken. It’s a single woman’s problem and to expect sympathy from the majority of men they have rejected chasing what was for her the unobtainable top 10% of men ignores basic human nature.
The game flips when women hit the wall and men hit their prime.
Dear Ash and Friends, Return of Kings??? And women are solipsists?
So they say.
“Men have to deal with it more than women do. As women, we have an abundance of options at any given time, and even as we age. A woman of value can be of a certain age and still have a hot guy wanting to marry her yesterday.
Most men simply don’t have the options we have, so in order to cope, they create this idealistic narrative that says they are more valuable in the end than that woman who rejected him.”
Can this be clarified further please? I would like to know the roots of this line of reasoning. Thank you.
I would say that there are 50% women and 50% men in society so as far as it comes to options, those are equal. If that is what you mean with options at least.
There are close to an equal number of men and women in society, but there are are generally more men actively seeking the opportunity to date women than there are women to men.
This is especially evident today in online dating.
Have you heard about the Tinder and OkCupid experiments?
http://jonmillward.com/blog/attraction-dating/cupid-on-trial-a-4-month-online-dating-experiment/
Attractive women get way more messages and matches than average and below average looking women.
However, attractive looking women, average looking women, and below average looking women ALL still get more messages and matches than men of the same attractiveness level.
I personally do not subscribe to such dating strategy. I am aware of the attention women are getting online. Also that they get much more attention than men, and that men are the primary group giving attention to women. Its a double edged sword. Many women are basing their value on social media likes and followers. It has a very negative effect on the self esteem of many women. A lot of women on Tinder are on there just to see how much guys are interested in them. They use it as a self esteem boost.
I am the type of guy that prefers to approach women that I am already acquainted with. This equals the playing field.
I think you’re giving messages sent by males and females equal footing. Men are probably far more likely to flood the inboxes of several dozen women at once in order to play the percentages . Remember men are more visual creatures and an attractive face and body will illicit a response even with a deficit in other personality traits. Women on the other hand while impressed with appearance look at a myriad of other factors before writing a response., if they even get to that point as their inboxes are already flooded. In short, I’d argue men are looking short term relationships and sex with their responses while women look at ever response as a gateway to something long term. It’s a broad generalization for sure but I’d argue messages sent and received is the wrong metric to look at.
thats because 99% of chix dont have the courage to make the first move..
A bit of historical perspective, although not a precise fit.
In June 1986, Time Magazine published an article about women “hitting the wall,” although that’s not the term they used. https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/06/more-likely-to-be-killed-by-a-terrorist-than-to-get-married/485171/
I would break up with my girlfriend 6 months later for reasons having nothing to do with the article. But, when I started dating again, I can vouch for article’s effects. As a 31 yr old college educated male with a solid career, average looks, reasonable social skills and decent taste in clothes, I went from having to really work to meet women and find dates to a commodity. Women I barely knew were calling me.
Between things like dating apps and social media, you can know about rejection in almost real time. It also allows one to be rejected by a larger number of people. In my day, rejection was more personal. After I broke up with my girlfriend, I put an ad in the “Males Seeking Females” section of the “Seattle Weekly.” I got four responses and went out with two of them. I have no idea of how many people read my ad but I doubt it was more than a few hundred at most. It might only have been a few dozen. How many people are on dating apps?
Schadenfreude is pretty common, but doesn’t make it right.
Harsh reality is the men are attracted to fertility rather than anything else in woman.
Unfortunately, fertility drops very rapidly as women age.
Statistical data is very clear, men like young girls much more than older, no matter the age of the men.
Boy would not like to be with a girl who doesn’t look pretty the same way the girl would not like to be with a boy who is a looser.
It’s biology, I never understood why women can’t comprehend this.
When I was 25 years old I was unemployed, didn’t have any social skills and lived off wellfare. Of course my dating life wasn’t great. I understood that.
So what’s up now? Let me guess: you’re 30+, unemployed, no social skills and a crappy dating life. I can’t imagine what keeps going wrong in your life. I’m sure it’s not your shitty personality and attitude. Keep playing the victim, blaming everybody for your own mess while refusing to improve yourself. Men like this are embarrassing for all of us normal, real men. Grow up and get your shit together. You’re pathetic.
36, great career, earn 100k+, have nearly half a mil in investments, travel the world full time, 6ft4in, 210lbs, always got a fresh haircut, groom myself properly, good sense of style. Confident, well educated, and I make my friends cry laughing with my sense of humor. Every woman im friends with says im husband material and doesnt understand how im single.
Still single, though. How much more can I improve? Ive been working on myself my whole life, only to be rejected by women who have never hit the gym once in their lives, who have no job prospect or serious mental issues.
Its not just hard out there, its nearly impossible at this point. Im not the bad boy that will ruin their lives, and thats all they seem to want, even as grown ass adults. I know they claim they dont, but women show their true colors in their actions, not their words. Its like they all stop maturing at 16. Perhaps convincing every woman that shes a princess and never challenging women to improve themselves (because theyre “perfect as they are”) has created a society of entitled, extremely low value women, who believe they all deserve Brad Pitt.
It’s understandable that you may feel frustrated with your dating experiences, but it’s important to avoid generalizing and blaming an entire gender for your difficulties. Not all women are attracted to “bad boys” or stop maturing at 16. People have diverse preferences, and each person’s journey to finding a compatible partner is unique.
People are attracted to different qualities in a partner, and physical appearance or material success may not always be the primary factor. Emotional intelligence, empathy, positive mindset, and shared values play a significant role in long term relationships. Focusing on developing these aspects might help improve your chances of finding a compatible partner.
I’m sorry to hear this is your experience. You have done well being successful, being funny and all that. I do understand dating can be frustrating. As for the last bit I don’t really follow anymore. It’s not my experience that women are so horrible. Although some of them are of course, just like some men or any other group. It does strike me as lacking nuance and quite bleak so maybe that’s your problem? If you look down on half of the population and think they are “low value” then I don’t think that’s a very attractive personality trait. Of course I don’t know you and I might be wrong about this. Best of luck to you.
Everything okay? Real men, do you mean simps like you?
With “real men” I mean men who take responsibility for themselves and actually get their shit together. If you only spend your life hating on everybody and playing the victim then you’re not a real man in my book.
I’m not sure if I’m a simp, really. I don’t care much about feminism either way. I’m also not “defending women”, I’m just laughing at your pathetic and childish behavior. Full disclosure: I’m happily married with children so maybe that makes me a simp. I don’t know.
And anyway good job avoiding my question. You strike me as a man who would still be unemployed, single and living on welfare. I’m also guessing it’s cause society/women/whatever are stacked against you and not cause you have an insufferable personality. You think you’re smart and superior to others but actually you have accomplished nothing in your life. Please correct me if I had the wrong impression.
Why correct you? Seems like you can make up stories very well without my help.
You seem insufferable to be around. ‘I have different experiences so you are wrong.’ Okay buddy.
What stories did I make up exactly? I’m just going by your own words here. You just seem the black and white type, a simpleton who thinks he’s smart but in reality can’t even figure out very basic things like social interaction or reading comprehension. I’ve met enough losers in my life to spot the type. The guy who judges everybody but suddenly gets triggered and defensive once someone dares to question him. The guy who just can’t seem to figure out why he keeps failing in life. The guy who leeches off welfare for years yet still feels slighted by society. And yes of course you might have a job and girl for all I know (for now). In that case: enjoy while it lasts and have fun playing the victim once you fuck things up again.
You sound like some guy who gets fired at 10 different places and blames other people every time 🙂
This Lennert guy is marvelous. Too stubborn to listen to what people say and automatic defense instead of allowing uncertainty. Nevermind feeling shame like normal people would, which I’m assuming he rarely does. The lack of self reflection and responsibility is quite amazing. He must feel like such a victim in life. How truly shocking that he keeps running into social problems. Really. Dunning-Kruger going at it in full force here, huh.
Right there with you. It sounds like Lennert’s in a tough spot, clinging to defense mechanisms instead of opening up to different perspectives. Skipping out on self reflection and a sense of responsibility definitely doesn’t help. It’s a classic case where a little humility and the willingness to question oneself could go a long way.
I’m pretty sure you guys are 60 years old and have no clue about modern dating trends. Seem like you know it all and are not willing to change your point of view. Typical boomer mentality.
Actually I am in my mid 30s. Almost all of my friends have children at this point. The average guy has children around 30, you know. And yes I do realize dating is hard. I never denied that. Please work on this black and white thinking cause you’re totally misunderstanding what people are trying to say.
Your reactions only prove everybody’s point here. Perhaps you should work on your personality somewhat and seek solutions this way? I can guarantee you this is going to be more helpful for yourself and more pleasant for those around you. Best of luck to you.
Just FYI I’m not a “boomer”. I’m 25. Dating is hard. It used to be way harder for me as a teenager. Cause smoking weed everyday, bad attitude, complaining constantly, having argument all the time and no steady job. Eventually I grew up, took responsibility for myself and got myself in order. If you’re really 30+, never grew up and still playing the victim then I feel really sorry for you. Luckily there’s still time to get it together hey. You can turn it around if you really want and work hard for it. Or just be stubborn and defensive, insulting people boomers or whatever else and don’t listen to anyone. Your life your choice 🙂
Great to hear that you turned things around for yourself!
Right on so if people call you out on your endless bullshit they must be “boomers” or “white knights”. You seem quite fond of making assumptions and pretending to know what you’re talking about 🙂 The lack of self awareness and zero shame you display is honestly pretty astounding..
Hey Jeff, seems like you are excited quite a lot. Only 27 October you said ‘The lack of self reflection and responsibility is quite amazing.’ And now ‘astounding’ again. Everything okay buddy? You seem to be in awe all the time!
Yeah well it is pretty incredible really. Like how you get publicly called out by a certified psychologist and even then there’s no self reflection at all. Your mental defense mechanisms are truly something to behold.
Wow how is this Lennert guy still going. Everything revolves around defending yourself doesn’t it. The idea that you just might need to improve your behavior doesn’t even seem to occur to you. Try listening to people for a change instead of pretending to know better. Try learning and improving in stead of being stubborn and playing the victim. You’ll get much further in life this way!
The fact that this Lennert guy is still on this article commenting after years trying to make his point, proves he is over 30 and unemployed, no social skills and all that. Who has never seen the real world, probably he’s always glued to his phone or computer, blaming and shaming women because of the misery he brought to himself. What a sad existence, as stated before by someone else, all we can see here with these red pilled guys from the manosphere is a big wall of ignorance that protects their fragile masculinity. Oh and if women your age never dated you, a 20 year old will never even look at you, this new generation of young women are more aware of their surroundings and are more likely to avoid rotten men.
I only have a smartphone since 8 months now. Have you ever heard of ‘notifications’?
Be sure to take of your shining white armour before you go to sleep, Carl.
As they should be!
Nice article. Well done.
But the part when you say..men don’t have as many choices as women.. Is that a joke or a typo?
I can’t recall any time in my life when I didn’t have an abundance of choices, very good looking women.
Thank you for the comment. In general, most men don’t have as many interested options for dating as most women do.
Sure women may have dating advantages, but its men that tend to be the decision makers for committed relationships and marriage proposals.
This depends on how you are “keeping score.”
Kevin Samuels said it best (although I imagine you would call him “red pilled”) “Women control access to sex and fertility and men control access to relationships.
He claims that, if you judge things based on marriages (and not sexual interest, social media likes, dates, etc.) then high value men tend to be doing much better than women. In the black community, I believe only around 25% of black American women are married.
Sure, women can have casual sex and get attention more than men. But when it comes to marriage, proposals, and legit commitment then I imagine the numbers drop; especially for women who are passed child bearing years, single mothers, etc.
You must not be that smart if you have fallen for Kevin Samuel’s propaganda
“He claims that, if you judge things based on marriages (and not sexual interest, social media likes, dates, etc.) then high value men tend to be doing much better than women. In the black community, I believe only around 25% of black American women are married.”
According to https://blackdemographics.com/households/marriage-in-black-america/,
27 percent of black women are married and 33 percent of black men ar married. That is not a very significant difference. Also, men die earlier than women, so a lot fo women are widows.
Also what metrics are you judging marriage by to claim that “HVM” are doing better?
You must “not be that smart” if you didn’t read the entire page you quoted from.
1. Over 465,000 more black men than women are married.
2. You quoted that 33% of black men were married and 27% of women were married. However of those 33% of black men 15% are married to non black women.
So not only are more men black men married than black women in real terms, proportionally more men than women are married as there are more women than men.
You statement about 33% not being statistically significantly different is also false as 6% difference at the population level is.
Black men are also more likely to be married than white men.
Complain about Kevin Samuels all you like however the facts are there. Black women are not in demand from other races and a huge chunk of black men are marrying out.
You also have no data to prove that the top 10% of black men are doing worse in marriage.
Black women are doing significantly worse than black men.
you confuse serious dating with a quick pump n dump..
Over 90% of men on Bumble is looking for a relationship so no pump ‘n dump. Kinda hilarious when people say that. Most men don’t get sex OR dates. But women have is sooo hard because men want to have sex? Alrightie then.
Women definitely have it easier in dating as far as options go. Where things get tough is vetting men for long term relationships.
How so?
But men have it tough to get sex AND relationships so I don’t even understand how women think men have it easier. If you barely have matches since women behave hypergamous and reject 95% of men, then men don’t even get to pick quality, because they don’t even have quantity.
It was my impression that “the wall” didn’t refer to women suddenly losing their looks or personality, but that after years of frivolous relationships, their time was up if they wanted to find an acceptable guy, have a normal 2 year courtship, get married, enjoy a couple years before having kids, and then still have 2.3 kids before her chance of defective kids or infertility got too high. I always thought “the wall” was a deadline, kind of synonymous with “baby rabies”, where women went from knowingly having sex with players, to suddenly seeking a marriage minded man, and realizing she had wasted too much time and now will likely have to compromise on the man she actually will marry.
Which then leads her to resent him for being less than what she had dreamed of, or had sex with in the past, and so she treats her husband like crap, and then after she has the kids in school she divorces him because she is a selfish whore who lacks moral character, and couldn’t care less how divorce affects kids. Her life was always and will always be just about her own self-centered feelings, which she failed to ever learn to control. She could have chosen to be happy, but instead Feminism tells her to imagine herself a victim, and entitled to hurt everyone around her for it.
And yes many men would probably like to see those same selfish whores suffer for their selfish arrogance. However, if they were also having illicit sex with similar whores then they are hypocrites.
Since women came to believe they are equal, they are really not good help anymore.
That’s quite the narrative, however imagined.
You have a rebuttal for everything….
Men will continue to celebrate The Wall when it strikes. Even married men celebrate the wall. Winter is Here.
Heh. Sure, Jan.
This.. exactly this. And Ash.. no, this is NOT imagined, this is the reality of today. I know because I have lived this. This was my marriage and divorce exactly. Funny how it also mirrors many divorces of friends I know. Also funny how 80% of all marriages, especially over 50 are now caused by women, just like mine, just like above.
I am what is considered a high value man.. 54, 100K/yr, 6’2″ 215 lbs, and my 300lb, fully grey, 53 yr old, alcoholic wife chose to leave to “live her best life”.
Destroying her family, her kids will not speak to her, and now is trying to get run through by Chad.
I watched her slowly over 12 years of social media, and modern feminism change into a bitter, resentful man hating person. I have zero doubt she will find a few Chads to pump and dump her but no quality man will, nor will she ever be in a LTR again because of the same. She literally has nothing to offer a man of quality.
She literally left a 10% guy for the streets, and to be honest now should be shopping for a 3 or 4, but she is a beautiful, independent woman striving against the Patriarchy.. so she DESERVES a 10.
I love the wall, and yes.. my revenge on someone who stabbed me in the back after 27 years is exactly that. I relish knowing how hard she has now slammed into it. I’ve seen her dating profiles.
I love how women are like ‘yeah, I divorced/cheated/played mind games/kept my options open’ and are then surprised men are enjoying women who hit the wall. But when a guy does it, he deserves only the worst, according to women. Double standard.
Gender doesn’t give anyone a free pass for bad behavior, and suggesting otherwise is an oversimplification. Nobody ‘deserves’ mistreatment for their past, and the concept of anyone ‘hitting the wall’ is a crude way to judge human worth. There are men and women alike who value integrity and loyalty, and for those who don’t think so, I’d highly recommend they consider why they can’t seem to attract such people.
I’m sorry to hear about the pain you’ve experienced. This has clearly affected you and your outlook on relationships. However, personal experiences don’t define the whole picture. Divorce is rarely simple or down to a single cause, like social media influence or modern feminism, regardless of who initiates it. As for your ex wife’s choices and the aftermath, taking pleasure in someone else’s struggles rarely leads to personal peace or closure.
Marriage, divorce, and the dating scene are complex, and they’re influenced by a range of factors. I hope you find a path that leads to healing and a future where you can forge positive and respectful connections, instead of focusing so much on the revenge and resentment you have expressed here.
LMFAO. Denial.
How so?
Ask the average 18-25 girl how dating and having hookups goes, ask 30+ women the same and you’ll see.
The wall is real and women know it. Why else do over 30 women layer on tons of make up, inject Botox in their lips and forehead and are the biggest customers of cosmetic surgery?
All women know that their value is based on their looks and they value youth Beauty and fertility. Why do you see so many women on Instagram seeking attention and validation by the way they look. Yes you can shame men for this type of behavior but at the end of the day a woman’s value decreases and she gets older and a man’s value increases as he gets older.
A 50 year old man who has his act together can marry a 25 year old woman to start a family a 50-year-old woman cannot marry and date 25 year old man and start a family it just doesn’t happen sorry ladies this is evolution and its reality.
How many 25 year old women are going to actually want a 50 year old man? Most are going to be more interested in his son.
Depends on what your son has to offer. He is right, what does a woman have to offer vs what a man has to offer at 50? A man is still going to have his looks at 50, plus his success. Take poon off the table and women bring nothing to the negotiation.
If the son is loyal, respectful, supportive, and looks good then he’ll be more valuable to a relationship minded woman.
Most 50 year old men still look better at 25. Even George Clooney himself can’t compare to his ER and Roseanne days.
If the son is loyal, respectful and supportive, she won’t be interested, or she’ll cheat on him and destroy him. Instead of lying to women, sites like this should teach them how to manage their own self-centered feelings and their massive entitlement.
Its funny how male sites encourage self development and improvement. Hit the gym, fix your thinking, become better. While female sites tell women theyre perfect as they are and usually just do male-bashing.
NEVER have I seen a single site telling women “hey, if youre overweight or “curvy”, go hit the gym”. Nah, its always “Oh the patriarchal standards of beauty must be dismantled. Meanwhile on the “incel” side as you like to call it, they tell me to hit the gym and improve themselves.
Really goes to show who is delusional here.
Bingooo. The double standard towards men is enormous while all the articles in media tell us that men are hypocrites. It’s the opposite. Women are getting trophys just for being born and whenever she doesn’t like something men have to change and ‘step up’, while men can’t have preferences and should always take a woman how she is. Just look at cheating stories, when men cheat they are bastards, when women cheat it’s because ‘he was probably a bastard’. Women aren’t encouraged to take accountability for their actions and that creates spoiled little brats. Hard times are coming.
Suggesting that women receive trophies just for being born is a gross oversimplification of the complex social and cultural factors that contribute to gender inequality. Women have had to fight for many of the rights and opportunities they have today, and there is still much work to be done.
They didn’t have to fight one bit because there is equality between men and women in the west for the past 30 years. Also men helped big time to get women these rights. Women act as if the Amazons layed siege to the Patriarchy fort and won. Remember when women didn’t want to vote because they had to join the army than? This is happening till this day, only wanting benefits but not the burden of equality.
It’s true that there have been significant advancements towards gender equality in the past few decades, but this progress hasn’t been uniform across all aspects of society. There are still areas where gender based discrimination and biases exist, such as lack of representation of women in positions of power and unequal distribution of household and caregiving responsibilities.
While men have undoubtedly played a crucial role in supporting and advocating for women’s rights, it’s necessary to recognize the contributions of women themselves in fighting for their own rights and creating change. It’s important to continue working towards a better balance.
‘There are still areas where gender based discrimination and biases exist, such as lack of representation of women in positions of power and unequal distribution of household and caregiving responsibilities.’
Women can vote for female politicians. I’m very tired of this. You can’t claim victimhood and say you are strong independant women at the same time. In my country women get positions of power just because they are women, these gender quota are insane. Caregiving responsibilities, another classic. Women whine about having to do majority of the chores. All men, myself including, cook, clean, take care of children etc. Maybe women suck in chosing good partners?
Alright, we don’t seem to agree on much concerning these men-women relations but I want to thank you for remaining respectful and answer 🙂 Most of the times a guy who criticizes women is getting called ‘incel/who hurt you/misogynist’. I don’t hate women but I see them complaining a lot when they have the most power and priviliges and that’s tiring.
In the Middle-East I would be your ally.
Helping women choose good partners who perform an equal share of child care and household responsibilities is a priority to me. While men’s role in these areas are improving, statistics still show women are doing the majority, even when they are working, and again even when they are the primary breadwinners. That’s why I stress proper boundaries and delegation in relationships where this is an issue.
It’s inaccurate to assume that all women’s platforms promote complacency and male bashing. Many women focused websites and platforms offer advice on personal growth, fitness, career development, and self improvement, and many women do engage in that type of advice. Just like men’s resources, these sites cater to a wide range of interests and goals. Let’s avoid overgeneralizing based on a few examples here, and that goes for your comment on loyal, respectful and supportive men as well.
Ash.. Watch and learn so you understand
Hi. You must be new here. I’ve studied Pearl long enough to know she doesn’t have much of anything to teach me. I have over 20 years of experience with men, 16 of those consecutively being in a successful relationship with one man to the current date. She has no real world experience in successful dating or relationships. All she has are ignorant opinions based on traditionalist conservative fantasies.
? The point of ‘the wall’ isn’t that old men still get young women. Men age too. The point is that women can’t have such high standards anymore, they have to settle for less than what they wish for. THAT is the wall.
It depends on what those standards are. Sometimes it’s not that standards are too high or too low. It’s that they are misplaced.
Women are delusional. My mom is one of those I don’t need a man types. She is now alone with her cat, angry and bitter. No one wants to be around her. Meanwhile, dad is happy and living it up.
What Mother Nature gives, Father Time will take away. Father Time is much nicer to us men.
I’m investing in pet companies. Mega boom coming soon.
Peace!
It’s important for women to understand the difference between NEEDING a man and DESIRING a man.
Needing a man can be dangerous territory. I used to think that way and it turned into codependency without lots of clingy behavior. It turned men off.
Now, I have a man and I know my life is better with him in it. If he ever decided to walk away, I’d be bummed for sure, but I know I’d live and still be able to be a happy and functional human being.
The wall is real no matter how much ideology you cook up to justify your poor life choices. As a 35yr old man with good looks, a strong body, a great income and a happy/healthy life I’m looking for a 18-30 yr old. I don’t even look at women over 30. They simply cannot compete with a younger woman for my attention or intentions no matter how good she looks or how much she tries. Her fertility window has closed and all she can offer me is her companionship and sex. Fun for a week or two to cure boredom, but that’s simply not good enough when a new crop of women turn 18 every year. You can blame the “patriarchy” till the cows come home, but if you are a woman and want to be married, do it before 30. Or don’t and settle for less or loneliness. It’s not a scare tactic at all. It’s a PSA. Men want wives and mothers for their children. Not whatever you think you are. My own sisters thought like you did, both are miserable today and say they wish they listened when they were younger. Both are single mothers now and can only attract low value men. As their brother, at similar age, my options are limitless in comparison and they resent me for it. So pay attention ladies… if you want to be with a man but don’t listen to what men want how do you expect to succeed with men? Truth be told, yes men enjoy watching women hit the wall, because it’s karma for the way those women treated men in their 20s but it’s not a revenge fantasy at all. It’s a very real tragedy. While I enjoy seeing women who have wronged me or who are misandrists trainwreck their lives, I also feel terrible for women who didn’t know better. You have no idea the sad dead looks in women eyes I see when they look at me with a 23yr old on my arm while they are dragging their beta through the mall or picking up another box of wine and cat litter on their own. It doesn’t boost my ego to know they wish they could have made better choices, it’s just sad to see them reap what they sowed. Articles and authors like this have ruined my sisters and those women lives. Feminism is cancer and it hurts women the most, but men are having the last laugh because as it turns out… Subjective reality does not trump objective reality. Some things just are no matter how they make you feel or how incongruent they are with your favourite nihilistic ideology. The true justice of feminism is that it will be a great Darwinian filter guaranteeing it’s failure to perpetuate into future generations. Look at Western birth rates and tell me feminism will be with us for much longer.
‘if you want to be with a man but don’t listen to what men want how do you expect to succeed with men?’ Problem is that women don’t tend to think about how they will age in the future, they are living it up and think there will always be a perfect guy for them. Their beauty makes them arrogant, while most men who have average looks always have been used to do a lot of effort, they’re more rational about it.
Feminism has failed and it was such a predictable outcome. Now we have to watch what we say before we hurt the princess’s feelings. So much for that “strength and independence” that was preached to you.
No one has to watch what they say in order to hurt my feelings. But if they disrespect me, there will be consequences to that.
I don’t argue against advising women to find a long term partner (husband). But I do want to put emphasis on the type of men women are allowing into their lives. It’s extremely important to me that women (and men too) educate themselves on personality and human psychology. It’s important to understand who you are and who you are dealing with. Failing to do so is how people end up in terrible relationships.
Simply saying “Marry by 30” completely ignores the whole concept of WHO one marries. The “who” is the part I encourage women to focus on.
”I don’t even look at women over 30. ”
”Her fertility window has closed and all she can offer me is her companionship and sex. ”
Who told you that 30+ year olds are too old to have children?
The menopause usually occurs between 45 and 55 years of age.
There are lots of women who had healthy babies in their 30’s and beyond.
In order to protect their fragile egos, men use “The Wall” as a defense mechanism.
Isn’t it equally a defense mechanism to disregard the concept of “The Wall” though? Surely, ‘The Wall’ has nothing but negative connotations. It’s a harsh concept, but we’re kidding ourselves if we say it doesn’t exist.
The lack of acknowledgement merely because it comes from a group of people that are on the defensive for the own personal shortcomings doesn’t negate the decline that all women face in the relationship world.
I don’t think this is about denying the concept of the wall and whether or not it exists as much at this is about understanding WHY the concept is being used as a weapon to intimidate women in particular.
It’s not ‘a weapon to intimidate women’ it’s a warning for entitled and deluded women who all go for the same top 10-20% men. Lots of women won’t get a high value man so they better look for Mr Good Enough. Men are used as a plan B or C after being friendzoned while she was in her prime. Men are catching up to this and won’t commit anymore if women continue this behaviour. You should read this book. https://www.bol.com/be/nl/p/mr-good-enough/1001004008258390/
If that’s a man’s attitude, then a happy long term relationship was never going to work out with him to begin with.
Indeed, if women continue this behaviour of manipulation and using people for their own benefits it’s not going to work out and there will be a lot of singles the coming decade.
That is assuming that men vet women for behavior, which we know that most men don’t do (or don’t care to do) properly. In that case, your warning is a mere hopeful threat.
Ok no, that’s a cop- out answer miss Ash. This is the same complaint that women make but you’re not hearing it from the man’s perspective. If a women is providing domestic labor yeah? And she’s upset because her man isn’t holding his weight yeah? The same concept applies in this scenario.
A man wants to provide a woman with everything she wants in a relationship yeah? But she doesn’t want to reciprocate yeah? Then she was careless with her youth, beauty and fertility yeah? And thus was inconsiderate of her future partner. I could just as easily say, that a woman with this mindset that she can afford to wait, that “a long term happy relationship was never going to workout for her to begin with”. See? See how I flipped it? You’re in denial, and utterly ignorant, and thus inconsiderate of what men tend to prefer. But if a man is inconsiderate of what a woman would want, you tense up, and become inconsiderate yourself. You see how it works both ways?
I’m only inconsiderate of what low quality men to prefer.
“I’m only inconsiderate of what low quality men to prefer.“
I could just as easily say
I’m only inconsiderate of what low quality women tend to prefer.
That’s fine, if that’s the case. However, most men find themselves with limited choices. Most men don’t have the options that women do.
Hi
First of all, I’ve read the text and I consider it a great reflection and makes us think about societal dynamics.
I’m a 31 y.o male and would like to add some thoughts, experiences etc.
Disclaimer: each person is unique, we cannot generalize and fall into simplistic thoughts like “women are x men are y”. My experience as a middle aged heterosexual man are the following:
When I was 20y.o I had more difficulty with women. With age, my “rate of success”(?) Has improved. (I’m more confident, mature, have a nice job, house, etc)
The majority of women I’ve met my age are looking for serious relationships.
I think both genders get more selective with age, that’s why love is more difficult. It’s not about gender it’s about age.
I don’t think any of the genders hits a wall. There are men who just like very young women and that’s it. Not my case tho
The women I know with the nicest husbands are also very nice and good people, never cheated etc
Have a good day
Women are biologically attracted to a strong, confident man that they feel can provide them safety and shelter. No one has any issue with that.
Men are biologically attracted to women that are suited for bearing children and continuing the family lineage. Apparently this is completely out of line.
This article is so sexist and one-sided, I almost assume it’s a satire.
What brought you to that conclusion?
Kinda hilarious how women deny the wall exists.
Women when they’re young: have sex with who they want.
Men when young: have sex with who they can.
Women love this game.
Women when older: marry who they can
Men: marry who they want.
Women hate this game.
Too bad women can’t feel what it is to be a young guy and become older, I was quite invisable for girls when I was 16-25. Now that I’m 30 suddenly I get a lot of attention but not from the ones I want.
My candle burns at both ends;
It will not last the night;
But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends—
It gives a lovely light!
– Figs from Thistles
99% of men and 99% of women are dumb animals. Fact.
lol in china the wall is 27
It’s not a matter of bitterness, it’s a matter of fact. The species aims to propagate and so both sexes select mates based on the other person’s ability to have healthy children. For women, this means choosing men who can protect and provide for their children – those men who are stronger and wealthier. For men, this means choosing women who are more likely to give birth to healthy children – those women who are more youthful. This is why men most desire women who are between the ages 18 to 23, and why women desire older men who are more established and have a secure means to provide. Men don’t peak until we’re 45 to 50.
The great thing about being older when you’re a guy is how the power balance shifts. In our early 20s, we get ignored and passed over. In our late 20s we get to choose who we want.
Case in point, when I was 28 I dated a woman who was 26. She had a crappy attitude. All the while we were dating I knew I could get a woman who was younger, nicer, and a lot better looking. And I did. Because I could. The next one was 23. I picked who I wanted. It was great.
And we don’t “laugh at women who hit the wall.” We only laugh at the ones who were too narcissistic to treated us like human beings, and whose crappy attitudes have doomed them to a life of cats and bitterness and asking, “Where have all the good men gone?”.
Sperm quality and motility declines significantly in men between ages 30 to 45. Men in their early 20s are in their biological prime.
Sure, but with women it decreases way quicker. Women are also the gatekeepers of sex so you can’t really blame men for women who believe they can wait another 10 years for their prince charming.
Not that much really and has shifted drastically to older men in the last decades. Besides, men only need one out millions. Women have lost +90% of their single egg cycle in their early 30´s. The wall is real.
Kinda hilarious don’t you think? Egg quality declines way faster but somehow women deny this and try to whataboutism with sperm quality which is not even close in comparison with eggs. Women: is it REALLY that hard to lower your standards and take one of the thousands available men in stead of waiting until you hit the wall and reading thousands of studies which might state that egg quality declines with 10, 30, 55, 65 (does it really matter). You are completely missing the point.
When it comes to fertility, women would be wise to take advice from their doctors before anyone else.
In India, China, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Nepal (East and SE Asia) the wall is actually 25-27. with the agerage age for marriging for women being 22 and 25 for India and China respectively. And the concept of The Wall has existed ever since humanity itself, it’s a biological fact that women are their most fertile during their early 20s, and depending on her diet, exercise, and genetics gradually loses fertility until around age 35 where pregnancy is termed geriatric (high risk), and at menopause ceases completely. A man on the other hand can theoretically reproduce beyond 60 until and unless he’s suffering from some erectile dysfunction or low sperm mobility or count, in those cases also, it can be fixed.
There is no set age at which a woman hits the wall, but as mentioned earlier, it depends on her diet, exercise, and genetics. Another thing also that many have missed here is compitition. Every day a woman turns 18, So basically the wall is the age at which she’s not longer able to compete.
sperm quality also declines over 30, look it up. Even there’s a high risk for their children to suffer mental illness
Sigh. Whataboutism.
This is true. Testosterone, muscle mass, cognitive function all declined at about 30 as well.
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“It is said to be around this same time when she realizes that she can no longer compete in the dating market with younger, more attractive women. At least, this is what they try to have us believe.”
I am intrigued by “try to have us believe”. I see two possible perspectives.
I think it’s obvious that almost all women become less physically attractive with age. While the decrease may start at 16 or 50, it is likely to be apparent by age 25 to 30, even to those who think they are unicorns. (Men also decrease in physical attractiveness with age, perhaps a little later in life.)
While some men may find this satisfying for reasons such as bitterness, I simply consider it to be fact. I am perplexed, however, by the large number of women offended by its mention. It seems they are either unaware of its existence or they are willfully denying it. For women interested in dating, I cannot imagine how this viewpoint is beneficial to them. I think it’s analogous to me thinking I could still play basketball at the same level I could as a young adult. While I am now more knowledgeable and experienced, my physical condition has lessened. Consequently I would be less desirable to one selecting a team.
Women need to understand the criteria a given man is using to select a woman. But they should also know that disagreeing with his criteria doesn’t make them wrong. For example, him wanting a woman under 200 pounds is little different from her wanting a man taller than six feet. Neither one is intrinsically wrong, even if you find it distasteful.
Supposing “try to have us believe” refers to men wanting women to accept their physical appearance is almost certain to decrease, I see two motivations. One is the men who want it for satisfaction or revenge. The other group want women to acknowledge it and change their attitude to improve their dating opportunities.
Women often deny negative aspects about them. If you’d say ‘men are agressive and lust for sex a lot’, most men will say ‘hmmm yes, that’s true’. If you’d say ‘women are as abusive as men’, women go bonkers. Lots of me are taught women to be little innocent princesses, only later in life me realize that ain’t true.
The wall refers to the age women to have children which is early 30´s at which point over 90% of her eggs are gone. Sure there are the childless and men that have kids already but at 35 women should realistically be searching for men in their 50´s or older where they just want somebody to live with or his kids have their own life. Sorry but hitting the wall hurts.
Most women at 35 can easily find men closer to their own age.
True. Lots of simps out there willing to comfort those women. Only to get divorced because you weren’t her first choice and she starts resenting you. That’s why I try convince every man not to marry or have kids. It keeps women from lacking and doing no effort at all, since women do a lot of effort to get their prize, marriage and kids, and after they get that they think they are safe because of marriage.
In other words, you “try to convince every man” to go against his biological instincts. Good luck with that.
I don’t need luck, men just need to see the light. It’s going great:
‘Only about half of Americans are married now, down from 72 percent in 1960, according to census data. The age at which one first gets married has risen by six years since 1960, and now only 20 percent of Americans get married before the age of 30.’ The internet exposed a lot of women.
The decline in marriage is evidently due to a variety of cultural, environmental, and economic reasons, and to imply that it’s primarily due to “men seeing the light” is dishonest.
First of all when mer are asked why they want to marry, over 60% says ‘because my girlfriend wants to.I never said it was the prime reason. Outdated and too costly would be the most important reasons. Completely ignoring the fact that men are tired of unfair court laws where women get 50% of his equity is not going to help anybody.
“When I ask them why, the answer is always the same: women aren’t women anymore.” Feminism, which teaches women to think of men as the enemy, has made women “angry” and “defensive, though often unknowingly.”
https://orthochristian.com/58804.html
Do you really think women initiating 70% of divorces (90% among highly educated women) isn’t an important factor? Really? How can you have such complete lack of accountability, its just baffling? I think you should talk with more men in stead of women because you clearly have no idea.
Kuddo’s to you for not calling me ‘misogynist’ or ‘incel’ though, that’s a first. I don’t hate women and I had some wonderful relationships, I just think women changed for the worse and there is no reason for marriage anymore unless women start taking accountability and lose the entitlement.
Where did you get that 60% of men marry because their girlfriend wants to? If this is true, I’d say that says a lot about him, not to mention what a foolish mistake that is. “Outdated and too costly” are likely reasons why many women too are delaying and opting out of marriage as well. Regardless, it is evident that married men are reportedly happier, healthier, and live longer than single and divorced men. https://ifstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/IFSMenandMarriageResearchBrief2.pdf
Women aren’t women anymore, what exactly does this mean? That article you provided cites Suzanne Venker, a woman who seems to have no problem partnering up with Anthony Johnson, a man determined to keep women barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen and he isn’t shy to admit it. The post alludes to women having careers and pushing men out of their breadwinner status in the household. Well, many households are struggling with one income. And women have found fulfillment in having careers they enjoy and contributing to the household financially. I definitely have plans to dig further into this in future blog posts.
I think the *reasons* for divorce are far more interesting and important. However, many people are afraid of this discussion and reasonably so. But they are conversations that still need to be had.
I’ve never been quick to call anyone misogynistic, incel, etc because I don’t believe most men “hate” women. I believe men are angry, and anger is a secondary emotion buried underneath other emotions such as confusion, jealousy, insecurity, etc.
This is the saddest thing I’ve ever heard. It seems like it’s one of the greatest tricks the devil ever played, turning women and men against each other. Everyone is going to age and eventually die that’s a part of life. I look better now than at 25, I’m now 40, and get mistaken for my 20’s. It seems as though the men who are getting passed over, are very bitter, and the women who hasn’t had a man in a decade or so, are extremely picky. High value, low value, hitting the wall, average, are all Bs words used to create division.
All very true, Mrs. L. It’s sad that rejection breeds so much contempt that these revenge narratives are created to cope. It doesn’t help anyone.
Thank you for commenting!
Maybe you should hold young women responsible then? You can’t blame men for being bitter when women always try to date up, getting used by men out of their league and then blame men for it when it’s their own fault. Most jerks are created by women.
There are several flaws in the argument made in this comment. First, it assumes that women are always trying to date up and that men are always trying to date down, which is simply not true. People are attracted to each other for a variety of reasons, including physical attraction, shared interests, and personality traits. It’s inaccurate to generalize all women as only seeking partners who are above them in social or economic status.
Second, your argument implies that men have no agency in their actions and are simply responding to women’s behavior, which interestingly enough, absolves men of responsibility for their own actions. Men are responsible for their own behavior, regardless of what women may or may not do. On a similar note, you’ll never hear me say anything remotely close to the idea that women are only a problem because men are, so please don’t come here with that type of logic or argument against women. Both men and women should be responsible.
The delusion in full view…
This is what other men have pointed out, women delude themselves, and coddle others in their delusions.
There is not a single woman on this planet who looks better at 40 than they did at 25, unless they were massively overweight and lost the fat, or they were somehow disfigured back then.
40 year old women are invisible to me, which seems to make women very angry, yet none of them ever have that “come to jesus” moment where they realize “oh, thats how the men felt when I was 20 and didnt see them”
’40 year old women are invisible to me, which seems to make women very angry, yet none of them ever have that “come to jesus” moment where they realize “oh, thats how the men felt when I was 20 and didnt see them”’ It’s because women rarely feel empathic towards men. They just see 40 year old men aiming for 20-30 year old women and they don’t even think about the fact that when they were 20 they dated much older guys who were richer, more experience, more status, ignoring the men of their own age.
Empathy is a human emotion that is not limited by gender. To say that women rarely feel empathetic towards men is a sweeping statement that overlooks the fact that empathy is a universal human experience.
The idea that all women date older men for their wealth, experience, and status ignores the fact that relationships are complex and based on a variety of factors. Also, your comment ignores the fact that age gap relationships can be consensual and healthy, as long as they are based on mutual respect and understanding. That’s why it’s important not to judge people’s relationships based on age alone, but to consider the individuals involved and the dynamics of their relationship.
After reading a few of your comments and getting and idea for your perspective on these topics, and especially after you asked how much more you can improve, perhaps one of my more recent articles might be of particular interest to you. https://damesthatknow.com/high-value-men-vs-high-quality-men-defining-the-difference/
I find the ‘hit the wall’ mostly subjective unless directly used for menopause and that it is actively used by toxic males trying to hurt women. In those cases I like to say those men hit the wall at birth when even the doctor didn’t want to catch him and dropped him. What I hate is the gross saying men age like fine wine and women like spoiled milk. No, women do not find wrinkles, bald heads or thinning hair, erectile dysfunction, and beer bellies attractive. Men do not all become attractive as they age. Mens prime are around 25-29. Some men go bald at 21. The rise in Autism is actually linked to older fathers aging sperm, not to the moms. If men go by them having money and young women suddenly wanting them, those girls often use him for buying her clothes and make up she uses to chase males her age. She is using him for money. That man is called a cuck. Your best bet is always dating somebody close to your age. You have more in common. I get that men have a hard time with women not finding them attractive, but they are chasing girls more attractive than them. So, she lets herself go someday, maybe gets in an accident loosing some limbs and he still hates her, but he will always be lacking in the dating department. Chances of him being rich or successful is slim, and that only attracts gold diggers, who often do cheat. If men stopped going after the woman’s looks, her looks would not matter, and maybe he could find women willing to overlook his own lack of looks or attractive features, if he wasn’t an emotionally abusive loser. The wall women hit is the same one men hit. As a young woman, older men hitting on me was disgusting and I always said no, those are the men called creeps. So, I get men feeling happy trying to hurt women, but age hits them just as hard, they are just the ones living in denial and then taking their lives at a massive level when they realize it. That’s why so many men end their lives at their own alleged ‘prime’.
Social media has created this monster. As men we need to collectively stop being simps and fawn all over every woman who posts with duck lips, beach feet and wind blowing in their hair. That’s not going to get you a date with her. All it does is feed into her sense of entitlement. We helped create this, we can put a stop to it. Oh and by the way pose with that picture of that big fish you caught. The right girl may just want to join you next time
These guys commenting here are totally lost. Here’s some facts, Boys:
1. The reason we’re seeing younger women increasingly interested in older men isn’t because of the men’s wealth or status: it’s because Testosterone levels among men 15-30 have fallen radically over the last 20 years. Even the UN and the US NIH has written papers on it. The average 20 year-old male today has the T-levels of an average 70 y/o in the 1990s.
2. These moronic Manosphere sites selling ‘dating advice’ are telegraphing Red Flags to any female who knows how to read. They live under some fantasy that women don’t read those ‘secrets’ too and learn how to spot superficiality from them.
3. I have younger female friends who are on dating sites. They may get more responses, but I’ve actually seen what these responses look like. They’re hardly passing on ‘normal decent guys.’ Most of those guys have no social use except as food for gunpowder.
The bottom line is that men need to start being men and that would impress women a lot more.
When women will be women again, men will follow and become men again.
Good that testosterone levels are decreasing, women wanted more emotional men. Or was that just a lie?
When you say, “women will become women again,” what exactly do you mean? What would that look like?
‘What would that look like?’
1) dressing classy without boobs falling out of your tops, same with shorts
2) develop a personality, be able to cook (western women barely know how to cook)
3) being fit, feminine and friendly. American men can’t complain because they are as obese but lots of +30 women look like 50, not working out at all but rather paint their faces, use botox, deceiving clothes etc in stead of doing some effort
4) lose the disagreable mindset. It’s okay to not fight every decision your boyfriend or husband makes.
I don’t disagree with any of those, and the guy needs to be on top of his game too. He needs to be classy in his behavior, both online and off, good personality, cooks and cleans, being cooperative, agreeable, and in shape.
Well, we finally agree on something.
My criticism and beef is not that men are all good people who deserve the best and that women should take them no matter what. If you are fat, unemployed, can’t hold a conversation, have no charisma, you shouldn’t be entitled to women who can do better. My point is that women are in the same boat, aren’t much better than the men they deem undateable but still feel entitled to only the best and have unrealistic expectations. I see articles from women about men ‘needing to step up their game’ all the time, meanwhile women are depicted as perfect beings who can’t find men ‘on their level’. That’s frustrating.
It’s understandable that you feel frustrated when you see articles or hear comments that imply women are perfect while men are constantly falling short. I hope you understand that such generalizations are not representative of everyone’s experiences or perspectives. In reality, both men and women come from diverse backgrounds, possess different qualities, and have their own unique challenges.
Instead of focusing on entitlement or unrealistic expectations, you might find it more productive to encourage open mindedness and genuine connection. This is something I often have to remind myself of as well. It can be easy to get stuck on complaining about the negatives, but it’s important to guide others towards what you believe is right rather than only pick on what’s wrong.
Ash: Something to remember too is that in the US (and I think Canada too); the ratios of men to women on most dating sites are heavily skewed towards men. I think I’ve read that some sites have 100+ men to every girl. I suspect that what a lot of the women on these sites are actually doing is putting together a ‘wish list’ of what they consider ideal and seeing if one turns up. That gives the illusion that they only want tall, wealthy, handsome young men because women really have nothing to lose by setting higher standards than whom they’re meeting locally.
I know that if the gender ratios were reversed, I would do that. I’d be looking for ‘9s and 10s’ because the odds are sooner or later one would be interested.
‘I know that if the gender ratios were reversed, I would do that. I’d be looking for ‘9s and 10s’ because the odds are sooner or later one would be interested.’
But why? If you know that 70% wants the top 10% of men, like women do now, why not lower your standards when you are in your prime and go with decent but not perfect man? You know you will get humped ‘n dumped by those top 10% and they won’t commit to you. Why wait until only the worst men are still available.
I think women know very much what they are doing and just ACT as if they were naive. They just behave the same why old millionaire men do, they try to play the game as long as they can because it’s more fun than riding in your own lane.
“Men will follow and become men again. Good that testosterone levels are decreasing.” Seriously: how masculine a philosophy is THAT?
He sounds bitter, and that doesn’t help attract the ladies.
Indeed, women can have 35 flaws and whine and complain all the time, but apparently men can’t do that because it’s pathetic. Such convenience one gender can do whatever it pleases and wants the other gender to ‘man up’.
It’s ironic that he doesn’t find Feminist ‘all men are pigs’ attitudes attractive; but somehow he doesn’t see why holding the same attitude towards women doesn’t appeal to them.
I’ve seen this in a lot of these Manosphere types: despite how they talk, they’re very Feminocentric in their outlooks. Their whole ego-identity seems to revolve around what women think of them.
So you think masculinity needs more testosterone? That’s quite toxic.
Wasn’t it testosterone that caused all the violence, rape, assault etc. You guys really need to start picking one.
It’s not that women of a certain age can’t get men anymore. They just can’t get the ones they want. The reason women online rage against the “Passport Bros” is because these are the men they want going overseas to find wives. 6 feet tall and millionaires for the most part saying the quiet part out loud. American women are over weight and mean. Of course the ones who can afford to pick wives from a different pool do so.
There’s no reason why women should be raging. There are plenty of great men willing to be with American women without demanding that they change. I always say, go where you are wanted. Besides, too many of the attitudes I’ve seen from men to champion the passport bro lifestyle are unbecoming They want wifely benefits on a boyfriend budget, and no, most of them aren’t going over there to get married. Most of them are going overseas to play house, until they run out of money, and then they come back.
Men who believe women hit a wall at some age are not goi g to be able to change that belief readily. He’s going to believe that if you’re married to him also. No woman should put herself through that.
If you don’t understand the concept of ‘the wall’, why don’t you look it up?
That’s why it’s extremely important for women to choose a man who doesn’t believe women lose value with age. If he believes women lose value with age, how’s he going to properly see her value once she does age?
It shows you don’t really have a clue in dating dynamics. You honestly cannot believe that women deppreciate with age. Hitting the wall doesn’t mean you are worthless, it means you can’t attract all the guys you want, like when you were 16-30. All men believe that but your ego can’t handle it so men will never tell you.
Humans depreciate with age. That includes men as well. Men are biologically at their best from 20-29. After 30, testosterone and sperm quality begin to decline.
Men stay fertile much longer and it’s less valued in men. It’s the other way around, men aged 16-30 are valued less than men who are 30-50, but it’s possible that this is different in your culture.
I think a lot of that depends on what a woman values a man for. If she’s looking for a provider, older men are more likely to have more money and that would make sense. But if a woman is looking for a lively partner who’s going to keep up with her, a man her age or younger will be more valuable.
Completely right. I’ve known women who were way more vital, while they have fatnor lazy husbands who can’t keep up with them. I hope and I feel like most women are becoming less hypergamous and are going for men they genuinely love.
I certainly hope that’s true.
My female cousin had the opportunity to marry a guy when she was 18 and he was like 20. She decided she can do better and never married him. Well now she is 38 and still unmarried. She says nobody wants to marry her. Her words not mine. That guy who was going to marry my cousin eventually found another 18 year old girl and he got married within few months. Basically all my female cousins on my dad side are on the same boat nobody will marry them as they waited too long. All my female cousins on my mom side got married in their late teens and all of them are still happily married. FYI my mom and dad are also married my mom got married when she was 18.
‘Won’t happen to me’ / ‘I am different’. Strange how all women think that.
It must be very confusing walking around with such a simple mind yet being so arrogant anyway. Let’s just hope you’re not like this in real life because that must be exhausting to deal with.
Indeed, why do they all think they are that special? They hate generalizations because it dismisses their anecdotal stories. Wall is undefeated.
Generalizations are fine if they are true. You can generalise without b
having this childlike black and white view of dating. In general the average person has children around 30 which means they settled down some years before that. Also in general people have their first serious relationship around 18 which means they’re really not waiting until later. In general most relationships don’t work out for a variety of reasons. In general nowadays there’s a lot of societal problems such as less social contact, more internet use, less friendships, more extremism, more indivualism and a million other things which complicates dating. Reducing all of these and other problems to some kind of onesided “women bad” notion lacks all nuance and is frankly a bit silly. So of course people will call you out on that but then you don’t even seem to understand what people are trying to say to you and apparently don’t care about much except defending yourself.
Ah, you were talking to me?
Alrightie then.
Generalizations conveniently gloss over the real, varied experiences of people. Everyone’s different, and that’s the bottom line.
Sure I’m bothering people. You’re the one here who is having a meltdown with like 20 different people in a single comment section. God only knows how many times you’ve been banned from websites, how many times you got fired, how many times you get into arguments in real life. I’m sure you’re such a victim in life and it’s not your fault eh. If everywhere you go smells like shit, check your shoes.
Why are you doing something so useless? What is the purpose here? Do you want to make yourself feel better? That’s the question you should ask yourself.
Women need to understand which attitudes in men to dismiss and reject. It just happened to work out that many have made themselves examples in this comments section.
Luckily for all of us people are different and there are people of the opposite sex who can accept criticism without calling you whatever they think you are.
The purpose is having a conversation and learning something from it. But if one person is too stubborn to listen then it becomes pointless. You run into the same problem with so many people here and yet you lack the self awareness to draw conclusions from that.
‘no use’
‘useless’
‘too stubborn’
Yet you keep on whining about me? It’s quite hilarious. Cope.
Bro no offence but I think you need to cool down on the defensiveness, do some selfreflection, start listening to other people, stop pretending to know better. You’re gonna have problems your whole life if you keep this attitude up. Peace
Trying to talk to you anyway, which is evidently useless. I have more success getting through to my special ed autistic children. Please go see a specialist to treat your mental problems and stop bothering others with it.
I think it’s you who is bothering people. Go for a walk outside, you need it.
We all tend to fall back on personal experience. When it comes to safe pregnancy and good marriage candidates, the wall is about 42. When it comes to “possibilities” it depends on the woman but I’ve personally seen it’s closer to 50, not 30. But that is a wall/limit for attracting desirable men for cougar fun. Some 32 yr old women can be mistaken for 24 yr olds. Therefore, age 30 isn’t significant.
Absolutely, personal experiences vary, and age isn’t the only factor in determining attraction or compatibility. It’s great that you’re considering the diverse perspectives out there!
Well, those men who say that need to grow up.
Or maybe women should be realistic and accept that there are consequences about their poor life choices.
I think this is more about how women are more ’emotional’ based, the men are. Just like the male author mentioned in this thread, Kyle, has admitted that in his opinion men are using ‘the wall’ as an ego boost or a defense, has caught traction with the ladies because it makes them feel a certain way.
Men and women aging, is just a factual occurence. We all age. Men look at it factually. It seems, the women are more concerned with how this information makes them feel. And, there are several examples all over the internet of women admitting that they are more concerned with how information ‘makes them feel’.
The notion that men are purely factual about aging while women are purely emotional doesn’t hold up. Just scroll through any social media platform, and you’ll see both men and women struggling with time ticking by — sometimes with humor, sometimes not.
I’m not saying that all men are mainkly dealing with a factual perspective. Nor am I saying that all women coming from a purely emotions.
To quote you’re original post “The notion of “The Wall” is often wielded as sort of a gloat, a way for some men to find solace or even a sense of comeuppance in response to their own romantic rejections or frustrations. It’s a narrative that suggests a woman’s value in the dating market diminishes over time, while a man’s increases. At least, this is what they try to have us believe.”
I would argue that the notion of the wall is not often wielded as a gloat, or weaponized (key words not often). As far as what ‘most’ men are looking for in the dating market, its facts that a woman’s value for realtionships does diminish over time for a man that is looking to have a family of his own. Over time, a woman’s ability to have children diminishes. I would also argue, that over time, a wife’s value increases to her husband when she is the mother of his children. As for the men that women desire, their value does tend to increase over time.
You also posted “Simply saying “Marry by 30” completely ignores the whole concept of WHO one marries. The “who” is the part I encourage women to focus on.” I can appreciate this sentiment. What I would add to it, is that the ladies will have to consider what “who” they want to amrry, wants. HIS wants and desires should be important to the ladies, right? Ladies have to ask themselves, “what does the ideal man I WANT, want from me?”
This comes full circle back to the topic of the wall. Its not about badgering women or beating women into some type of submission. Its about objectively reaching goals. Its about the ladies who have their entire lives ahead of them, learning from the mistakes of the generation before them.
A lot of men seem to gloss over the fact that mens’ sperm quality begins to decline at around 30, about the same age when women’s fertility starts to decline. However, we’re being sold this narrative that women are dried up by 30. This has been pushed so much that it’s actually been shown as a trend that women this age quit taking birth control properly because they believe they’re too old to get pregnant. This has caused an uptick in unplanned pregnancy and abortion in women 30-45. We need to be careful what messages we’re sending. In general, both men and women are biologically at their best for starting a family between 25-29. This range is more likely to have the emotional maturity necessary for parenting responsibilities while keeping birth risks low.
As for bringing value, asking “what does the ideal man I WANT, want from me?” is a good place to start. Though slightly different, what’s worked for me and what I encourage women to ask themselves is: “what do I WANT to bring into an ideal relationship, and what type of man is going to appreciate that?” Having them answer both questions should give them more insight into any gaps that exist between expectations and reality.
Not most but a lot. ‘In 2021, it was estimated that 27.2 percent of women in the U.S. had some type of mental illness in the past year’
But the frustrating part is when you hear women about how childish men are or that they smook weed and drink a lot. Yeah okay ladies, let’s talk about your medication addiction which is way less visible.
Women should stop acting as if they are god’s gift to men. There are as much terrible men as there are terrible women, but somehow it’s always men that criticized for not being or doing enough.
Mental illness doesn’t discriminate. Careful with the generalizations and finger pointing.
Apparently it does.
“Women have a significantly higher frequency of depression and anxiety in adulthood, while men have a larger prevalence of substance use disorders and antisocial behaviors. Women also have a higher prevalence of depression and anxiety disorders due to genetic and biological factors.” So it is very odd how women criticize men for their addictions but women can swallow pills constantly and don’t get to criticized. Double standards no. 54828.
Comparing mental health issues to substance use disorders is like comparing apples to oranges. They aren’t the same thing. The root of these conditions can include a mixture environmental, psychological, and biological factors. This isn’t a scoreboard for who gets more flak for their health issues. It’s about understanding that everyone faces challenges that deserve empathy, not judgment.
‘Mental illness doesn’t discriminate’ I disproved that statement, you were wrong.
Indeed, so why are women so cruel towards men with addictions, why they themselves swallow pills for their mental health conditions all the time? That’s the point.
Hey Lennert, I understand you’re passionate about this, but it’s going off topic a bit too much in relation to the topic at hand. If you’d like to discuss the issue around mental health further, feel free to use the contact form which goes to my inbox.
I understand, will do.
Psychologist here. You are correct that women are more likely to develop mental ilness. Women are more likely to be depressed and have anxiety issues, while men are more likely to have antisocial illnesses such as sociopathy, or addiction. In general we could say that women with mental ilness harm themselves while men harm others. That is oversimplying it ofcourse and the reality is more nuanced. Let’s be ver careful about turning this into a black and white thing in any case.
Here’s some reasons why women are more likely to have issues such as depression, as to the latest research:
– women are much more likely to experience certain traumatic events such as sexual assault or domestic abuse
– women still have more responsibilites at home which leaves them with less time to decompress
– women are more likely to seek professional help which skews the numbers a bit
– women tend to ruminate about their problems, rather than masking it with antisocial behaviours or addiction
– women live longer and very old people are more likely to be depressed
– big hormonal changes such as pregnancy or menopause may lead to depression, while men don’t experience these fluctuations
Thank you for this insight. The topic of mental health between men and women is very nuanced, which is why I’m hesitant to get into it too deeply here. Some people say women are more depressed and struggle with mental illness, but as you said, women are more likely to seek professional help. But this doesn’t mean men aren’t just as likely to struggle with these. Many men go undiagnosed and untreated on their mental health challenges, and how are those cases supposed to factor into data?
Jup, exactly my point. Women aren’t any better than women but they often like to say they in fact are.
Ash, then that also means women have as much problems with addictions and antisocial behaviour as men but they are just searching help quicker? Is it really that difficult to just accept women are as bad or as good as men? Really?
My point in all this is to ‘equalize’ women and men more. Men aren’t all that bad creatures that women pretend we are and women aren’t all sweet little angels they pretend to be and every gender has its problems, that is all.
You know domestic abuse is as big as women as with men, right? Yet women act as if it’s men who do 95% of the abuse. Women are just way sneakier and they get more sympathy so they get away with this behaviour.
“Bad” how? “Good” how? Thing is, ideas of good and bad are pretty diverse from person to person. There are things one might find good about someone or a group who someone else thinks is the 2nd coming of Satan. I would never argue that “men are good/bad” or that “women are as good/bad as men.” This just isn’t the conversation we need to have.
Lennert I feel like this conversation isn’t very productive so I will excuse myself at this point. Feel free to seek out profesionals on these topics if you want to get educated. Be careful with making assumptions and please stay away from bad sources like YouTube “experts”, clickbait “news”, echochambers and so forth. Have a nice day!
Hey Lennert I’m afraid there’s been a misunderstanding because that is not what I meant to say at all. “Then that also means women have as much problems with addictions and antisocial behaviour as men” that is not true. Women seek help more so the numbers are skewed. But that doesn’t mean it’s anywhere near the same amounts. Because men are less likely to seek treatment for antisocial behaviour or for addiction problems, they are in fact underrepresented in these cases. For depression it’s similar: depressed men seek less help so depressed men stay under the radar more often. But that doesn’t mean it’s “the same” at all.
@Ash yes I know what you mean. I already regret making these statements here because they get turned into a black and white thing immediately. We should be very careful about how we speak about these issues because certain people will take little nuggets and then twist them into faulty conclusions to fit their own agenda. We should all be mindful about how we communicate about these things.
I know and that is not my point it all. I was just refering to Ash, who automatically assumes men have as much mental health problems as women. Just because men under report A doesn’t mean they are also under reporting B. Causation is not always correlation. Of course it’s possible that men have as much mental conditions as women, but it’s difficult to get the real numbers.
I’m saying we don’t really know because this topic is so nuanced. Men’s mental health challenges are pretty significant, for a variety of reasons, as are women’s, I don’t think its going to be productive to grab a measuring stick around it.
Agree, my bad.
Completely understood. I do hope you decide to come back and engage on discussions in future articles. It’s always good to have professional insights to add into conversation.
No worries Patrick, you said everything you had to say.
Thanks for the input and advice! If thousands of people have the same experiences I wonder if these generalizations spring from ‘youtube or echo chambers’ though.
Yeah bro and thousands of people experience demons as the cause of their problems. Surely if a group of people have an experience that confirms my prejudices then that must mean it’s true. I know better than all the experts and I don’t need to do any self reflection at all. No sir, it’s all them evil other people’s fault!
Sadly many people do believe they know better than experts. You know what they say about confident idiots.
Can you point out where I dismissed his statement or I stated he is wrong and I know better? Strawmanning me here.
I’m not saying you did here. I was speaking in general.
Check. I’ll unsubscribe since everything has been said.
I’m not an incel and I don’t hate women, I’ve had wonderful relationships in the past and I have a wonderful girlfriend now. I treat women better than so many men who talk nicer about women. I’m autistic and have seen so many guys getting broken by women and narcissistic behaviour (of course men do the same but I’m on the other side). I just want to get rid of this ‘men bad, women good’ view that society still has. In relationships,from cheating over manipulation till domestic abuse: whatever bad things men do, women are always nearly on the same level. Those things lead to bitterness and revenge plots. You shouldn’t be consumed by them but at least try to understand why they are often justified and natural.
Thanks for always replying in a constructive way, Ash, wish you all the best!
What’s with this body count stuff? It’s not like its a notch on your belt that the world can see. How can you tell if someone has slept with 3 people 100 times or 300 people 1 time? The answer to the question is none of your business.
Exactly. They swear up and down they “can tell.” No, they can guess, but it’s not information they need to know anyway in order to sustain a health relationship. They’ll know when and IF someone wants to tell them.
You okay?
@Ash Yeah Dunning Kruger all over the place.
You don’t get to decide what is important for people, Bob. Most men care about body count. What utter arrogance of you to claim otherwise. But good for you that you don’t care about the ability to form emotional bonds with each other, then everything is okay, right? If you get what you want. Yikes.
Dunning Kruger isn’t a measure of what’s important, it’s a measure of bias. Now that’s fine that this body count thing is important to you, but unless you have a way to accurately count and measure the number of sexual partners someone has, it’s a meaningless metric. You can decide to cling to it, but people don’t have punch cards on their genitals for you to objectively measure. By the way, I’ve been married to the same woman for 26 years.
“Whatever bad things men do women are nearly on the same level”
But that’s just not true at all? You literarily just had an actual expert correcting you that men have in fact way more antisocial behavior. Then you deny to pretend to know better and then the very next post you are contradicting the entire experts opinion again. WTF? Quite amazing how someone can be so arrogant yet so wrong at the same time (Dunning Kruger I guess). Please inform yourself properly before making ridiculous statements like this.
PS: of course that doesn’t mean men in general are bad or we should dislike an entire gender or anything like that. It’s not a competition or a black and white thing in any way. But facts are facts anyway. Just a small example that criminal men outnumber criminal women more than 10 to 1 for example.
Lennert POV: when you’re such a wannabe know-it-all an actual psychologist has to tap out after only two messages. Then you thank him, make a big exit speech but just keep on going after that anyway. Is this a Monty Python sketch or something? Brilliant
I mean if you think about it realistically then yes the wall does exist. I’m not saying that to be mean or to put down women, but as a man, I’m saying that we value looks over anything else that women brings. Women seem to value things like stability and finances, which is the complete opposite of what men values. The problem lies in looking at the perspective from a woman on what a man wants instead of looking at the perspective from a man. If we as men, say women value looks in a guy more so than stability, would you believe us? Probably not, because I think you know deep down that stability is more important to women than looks. Now flip that question and ask yourself if men values stability over looks and see if you come up with the same answer.
Preferences in attraction can differ, with many men valuing physical appearance highly. However, the focus of my article isn’t on debating the existence or non-existence of the wall but rather on exploring why such a concept has become a fixation for some, often as a form of revenge fantasy after rejection. The concern is when these preferences turn into a narrative used to cope with disappointment in a way that might be unhealthy. It’s the psychological foundation and the impact of this fixation that I aimed to unpack, and I appreciate your input as part of this discussion.
I think its more that women don’t want to hear about the wall, than it is men trying to weaponize it. Its not about revenge. Its about reality. We do understanbd that women are more focused on how something makes them feel and who said it, than they are about the reality of what was said. Men generally tend to speak in a more direct manner.
Why don’t women just ignore any talk of “the wall?”
It’s the same with body count. They don’t care about it so they think men shouldn’t care about it either. Women are mostly projecting their own desires and try to ignore bad traits in stead of working on them. How many tweets or articles have you seen from women who say men need to do better? How many articles that say women should do the same have you seen? Very few. Look at questions about age and weight, women get so upset, while those things are just facts. So rather then to adapt and accept the wall (and not having insane standards only to drop them when they hit the wall) , they rather simply dismiss the fact that it exists. Mind boggling logic to be fair.
It’s not that women think men shouldn’t care about body count, it’s that a heavy preoccupation with body count signals to us relationship incompetence and insecurity issues. It says you basically can’t handle the idea of a woman ever having a life that didn’t revolve around you and that you’re scared to death of her comparing you to someone else who’s better. We know that men hate any reminder that we’ve had sex with someone else who’s not you: and that very fact signal weakness and lack of respect.
Sorry Ash but it’s hilarious you talk about ‘men not having an adult mindset’ but here you are again with that InSeCuRiTy. Men are grossed out by women who have a high body count and that has always been the case. The fact that women try to dismiss that wish from men, while having a shopping list of demands for men themselves, says everything. Men just should accept everything women do, right? No accountability whatsoever. Just you blaming and gaslighting men, it’s gross. Men are tired of this and are checking out en masse.
Men have admitted they’re insecure. There’s evidence of that everywhere. However, I’m not denying that men can have their preferences. Of course they can. But If you really want a woman with a low body count, well first of all, you better not have a high body count yourself because regardless of male and female differences, women DO NOT want a hypocrite who holds her to higher standards than he holds to him, and secondly, you need to accept the fact that quality women are checking mens’ attitudes about these kinds of things and they just might be checking out as well.
Well, there’s men admitting it’s about revenge, which tells us a lot about their character and how they view women. These are things we need to evaluate men for relationship potential. Smart women want a man who respects and appreciates women as they age. Sadly, many men don’t and women need to know what that looks like when they see it in front of them.
Ash
Many of your comments are not helpful because you are trying to hard to be balanced.
It may well be that one side of this debate is just wrong … it happens.
Democrats and Republicans are not equally right or equally wrong.
One is on the wrong side of history and time will surely tell.
Similarly it is quite possible that feminists are just wrong … and to be helpful you should reflect on that possibility and use your talent to help others realize that possibility.
If the scale is tilted and you keep adding equal weight to both sides … you will not balance it out.
Your critique seems to assume that striving for balance is inherently unhelpful. The pursuit of balance isn’t about awarding equal points to each side. It’s about acknowledging the complexity of these issues. I’ve found there are very few times in life where answers are black and white.
With your idea that one side in any debate could be “just wrong.” History is littered with examples where the majority opinion was later flipped on its head. Remember when the earth being round was considered laughable? Good times. Time has a funny way of making people eat their words. Political parties and social movements are complex. To label one side as the sole bearer of truth would be to ignore the nuanced, often contradictory nature of human beliefs and societies.
You suggest I use my talent to help others realize the possibility that one side might be wrong, but what about fostering critical thinking, rather than directing it towards a predetermined conclusion? Encouraging people to question, debate, and think for themselves – isn’t that a form of helping too?
Balance is fine …. When the time is right for balance.
But when you need to correct for misconceptions… you don’t need balance.
You just need to tell the truth.
Sometimes things are complex and nuanced …. And sometimes the answer is clear.
So I ask you again. Could feminists just be wrong?
Is it doing no one any good for young girls to keep being indoctrinated by a false view of themselves and the world.
Upon looking at the way things are going in our society …. Is this possible and could you help by pointing this out.
Could feminists be wrong about certain things? Sure. But I’d say it high depends on the specifics of what we’re talking about. Is feminism as a whole just “wrong” in general? I’d say absolutely not. We’re going to have to narrow it down.
“What are your thoughts on men who confess revengeful thoughts when it comes to women hitting the wall?”
That’s their personal issue. It doesn’t apply to all men. I’m sure no one is trying to paint all men with a wide brush. Right?
It might not apply to all men, but I’d argue that it applies to enough of them to warrant opening this up for discussion about the red flags to look for within this point of view.
As a man, here is my perspective and many other men’s perspective on this issue. I’ll remain as neutral as possible.
Semi-attractive women or above have much more of sexual options available to them in their teens and twenties compared to men. Modern women often take advantage of those options freely, due to birth control and the pill which is new for civilization. These women rack up many sexual partners by the time they reach their 30s. At this point, the woman’s looks begin to fade and so does the male attention. An anxiety of being alone becomes dominant and the woman will start looking for a long term boyfriend or husband with good traits. These men with good traits were largely ignored, rejected, or treated poorly by those women in the 20s.
The guy with positive traits sees these women, at this stage in their life, as sexually exploited with psychological issues. To a man, a woman’s promiscuity show the inability to commit, emotional bonding issues, that they’re likely to cheat, and too flighty and hedonistic to be a good mother. Many psychological issues arise in women arfter they’ve allowed themselves to be used as a sexual object, whether they realize it or not. Why would a good man date, commit, or marry such a woman? It’s a terrible mistake for a man. Men become resentful of the fact women ruin apsects of themselves and their futures, despite men warning women, and then we have mostly damaged women to chose from. It’s a serious mess.
From the male perspective, women often shoot themselves in the foot. When men tell women they’re making a mistake, women get irritated and blame male ego or the patriarchy, instead of considering men’s concerns. We do make up half of the human population, so please listen to us.
Hi Kyle. Aging and changes in attractiveness apply to both genders, not just women. Also, the idea that sexual history or physical appearance defines a person’s worth or future relationship potential is a narrow perspective. Good traits in a person, be they man or woman, extend beyond their sexual past and are more about character, empathy, and mutual respect. Men resenting women for their past experiences seems more about judgment than understanding – not a good trait.
Hey Ash what’s up with these manosphere types stalking your page? Did you get featured on some kind of YouTube hate video or something? I’ve seen this a couple of times where they all decide to gang up and online harass somebody endlessly cause of some inciteful video. It’s mildly annoying but even more sad I feel, that this is actually how some people waste their limited days on Earth…
Hi Evelyn, that’s a good question. I know the link to this post has been shared a few times on various platforms, but I’ve also noticed an uptick in users coming from private sources. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a Rumble or BitChute video discussing the post. Regardless, I’ve been realizing that it’s necessary to more closely monitor the comments in order to keep the peace, so I will be doing that. It’s baffling to think that some people choose to squander their time trolling and harassing others online. Out of all the productive and enjoyable things to do in life, they choose this.
Some of them clearly have serious mental issues which is a bit concerning. I hope they find help somehow. It’s easy to fall into some kind of algorithmic rabbithole and heaven knows how to ever get out of that again. I feel like the internet is really damaging, especially if one lacks the self reflection and critical thinking skills necessary to navigate in a healthy way. They’re also victims in a way I feel.
Completely agree with you there.
I am thankful everyday when I wake up that I am single. The train wrecks that my friends have been through, losing more than half their assets and the others being henpecked to death by annoying, selfish, narcissists. I feel like I dodged a bullet. I have a peaceful life, I have more money than I can spend, and now, all of a sudden I am being “seen” by women I could never date when I was younger because I didn’t meet the rule of 6s. I tell all of them I am not looking for marriage or long term, and also mention I am dating multiple women at once. Take it or leave it. Marriage is the death of a man in America, don’t do it fellas. If you are an average guy, I urge you to work on yourself, go to the gym, get your finances in order, and leave these women alone until your own value increases. Dont waste your time on dating apps. Think of yourself first, focus on making yourself better, not to be more appealing to women, but because you have this one life, make it count.
No reason to be bitter, women’s power comes from their youth and beauty. When humans age, beauty declines. You can call it The Wall or any other name you want, it’s just the truth. A man’s power doesn’t come from his beauty, but from his life experience and accumulation of wealth. I have no problem with either gender using their power to get what they want. But to deny the reality of this is naive, and doesn’t change the dynamic. Thanks for listening.
Marriage is the “death of a man”? Come on guy, we’re not in a Shakespearean tragedy here. Marriage, or any relationship for that matter, is a team effort. If you’re not playing well with others, maybe it’s not the game that’s the problem, but how you’re playing it.
Also, let’s not confuse temporary bliss with long term fulfillment. Just because you’re avoiding commitment doesn’t mean you’re mastering the art of happiness. It might just mean you’re dodging the work it takes to build something meaningful. Emotional intelligence, empathy, understanding, responsibility, cooperation, and accountability – these are the currencies of a rich relationship, not dollar bills.
As for your advice about focusing on oneself – absolutely. Self improvement is key. But know that isn’t just about hitting the gym and stacking cash. It requires growing emotionally and learning how to build strong, healthy relationships. Smart, quality women won’t find anything less acceptable. And if they do, they’re being foolish. We don’t reduce women to their looks or men to their bank account here.
This article together with the comments it prompted are a perfect illustration of how the ever growing polarisation between sexes causes us—as a society—consistently to miss the point on most modern issues relating to romantic relationships and gender equality more broadly.
It doesn’t take a jury trial to establish that a person rejoicing at another human being’s misfortune is showing signs of immature pettiness at best and pathological sadism at worst. Any man infatuated with women “hitting the wall” would unequivocally fall somewhere on that spectrum, irrespective of his underlying motives—be it as a coping mechanism following rejection or other.
This, however, completely misses the point. Rather, the question ought to be: does “the wall” exist and, if so, what can we do about it as a society? While we can all agree that “rejoice about the existence of the wall and do nothing” is certainly the wrong answer, that still doesn’t bring us any closer to figuring out what the correct answer to that question is.
My personal opinion on the question is that “the wall” does exist in the sense that a woman entertaining “traditional” aspirations towards motherhood and building a family in the context of a robust marriage will face a drastic decrease in her chances to achieve those ambitions once she’s past a certain age. There is no precise number that would apply to all women; the specific age will differ for every woman, including due to factors such as her specific biology and life circumstances as well as factors relating to her own desires and expectations for her prospective partner and future life as a mother. Generally speaking (meaning on an average basis and not discounting the possible existence of statistical outliers), a woman will “hit the wall” by or around age 35 based on that definition.
As to how society as a whole should approach the reality of “the wall” in women’s best interest—I’m in favor of a more honest and open dialogue about the reality of this issue and the risks for women of failing properly to factor it into their life choices. In essence, this dialogue should strive to promote the notion that freedom of choice unfortunately does not equate freedom from consequences for one’s own choices.
Hi Thomas,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You’re right on the polarization between men and women and how it skews our understanding of modern relationship dynamics. I understand your point about the existence of the wall and society’s role in addressing it. It’s a conversation worth having, however, the purpose of this particular article was to explore the “why” behind the prominence of the wall in certain narratives, not necessarily to debate its existence. Though that might be a good topic for a future date. This one is meant to expose the motivations behind why some men feel they need to press this concept to women, often in a demeaning way.
Fine then—if that’s truly a point you thought still lacked sufficient consensus to be worth spending more time advocating for it: I do agree there’s no good reason for any man to instrumentalise this issue (or any other issue) for the sole purpose of being demeaning or hurtful towards women.
This being said, I also firmly believe that social perception and tacit disapproval of certain behaviors play an important role in steering individuals away from behaviors that, while not criminalised, would still be damaging to the good functioning of society as a whole if adoption were to be allowed on too wide a scale. For example, while being an alcoholic is not illegal in western societies, social perception will lead to the tacit condemnation and isolation of those individuals from the rest of society, therefore acting as a deterrent for a potentially social collapse-threatening behavior.
In my opinion, the same social perception and tacit condemnation ought to apply to behaviors known to be contributing-factors to women “hitting the wall”—excessive sexual promiscuity being one clear candidate.
I concur however moreover to the point, there’s a baked in lack of bandwidth that points to a lack of alignment between the genders, lending to an effort to boil the ocean in this discussion. What we need is blue sky thinking that breaks down the silos, while we bring back to the table bleeding edge that focus on our core competencies. I’ll have a deck ready for discussion for a deep dive at our next roundtable.
Great work. Any ETA on when we can expect you to be funny? Or is that workstream now OBE?
No it’s just sad you write to be impressive and less about conveying your point in plain language. I’ll let you get back to your corporate consultant gig
There are some fundamental we seem to agree on. At the same time, labeling something like sexual promiscuity as a behavior that deserves tacit condemnation is a leap. It’s one thing to encourage healthy, respectful relationships and quite another to police personal choices under the guise of preventing societal collapse. We need to cultivate a society that values respect and personal autonomy. This means encouraging conversations about healthy relationships and understanding that personal choices are just that… personal. They become problematic when they actually harm others, not when they don’t fit into a traditional mold.
Sure buddy. Ever considered English might not be my native language; or are you too American to even wrap your head around that? Happy to continue in any other language of your choosing—I can guarantee you there won’t be a single language I don’t master better than you.
You write like a high school honor student who took a course in word salad and thinks he’s an intellectual. No I don’t wish to hear more of your dribble after you run through google translate.
Let me tell you, you’re one funny kid. At least your parents did a great job raising you to hold such confidence, despite having nothing to show for it. Picked another language yet?
All the men in the comments are proving the articles point without actually knowing it. These men are dumb. And this is why women don’t want anything to do with men nowadays. Because men will degrade, sexualize, objectify, and shame women and except them to say, “thank you sir for your constructive criticism. Ill change my life based on your desires and wants”. AS IF. Some men need to be humbled. Like boy… you have nothing to offer but your beer belly, bad habits, and bald head. ARE YOU REALLY one to talk about “value”?
We’re not offering you anything anymore. We spent our 20’s pursuing you only to be disappointed by your constant hypergamy. Our 30’s finding someone to raise a family with only to be subject to a 70 percent divorce initiation rate by women, then to lose our kids to sympathetic judges. Now that we’re in forties, you criticize us for beer bellies and bald heads while your try to wrap your fat butts into animal prints bathed in cheap perfume. Look in the mirror, we’re both getting older but because men are judged as to what they can provide and not what they are, our candle burns more slowly than yours. To that end, we’ll date you, we might pretend to enjoy your company for a chance at sex with you, but don’t mistake that for wanting something of lasting value. Unless of course we find someone that’s kind, feminine and doesn’t thrive on drama. Only then are we willing to take that leap of faith again.
Some men and women carry baggage from past experiences, but that doesn’t mean all hope is lost. There are plenty of men out there who are still genuinely looking for meaningful connections and long term relationships, not just a transactional encounter. Life’s too short to hold grudges. Both men and women age, change, and hopefully, grow. Everyone is trying to find someone who matches their values and wants to build something real, regardless of age or past scars. There’s more to life, and many are still playing for keeps.
Thanks for the comment, Brynn. It’s pretty ironic that some of the comments here are only proving my point, which is why I’m leaving many of them up. It’s high time for a reality check. Everyone should bring at least as much to the table as they expect from others. Humility goes a long way, especially when what’s being offered is a whole lot of nothing but unrealistic demands.